S2000 or Type R

[owequitit]

???

You can't say the ITR uses a completely different chassis from the LS/GSR. Sure Honda may add more braces, but the chassis is still based on the regular integra. I did NOT say the ITR was not built for the track. Common sense says it performs well on the track, but the integra chassis was never intentionally designed for the tracks. The S2000 is built as a track performer, so it'll have more potential.

Acutally, it was kinda made for the track. Not specifically as a race car, but as a car that would succeed at both.

Initially, they weren't offered with the typical "Acura" luxury features, because it was assumed that buyers would want absolute max performance, otherwise they could get a GS-R. I think some of the features popped up when it was brought back after a short hiatus.

And yes, the Type R chassis IS based on the GS-R, but it is also substantially modified, so they are not one in the same.

Like R33 said, it was significantly strengthened. That has a similar effect as putting a roll cage in a car. It substantially stiffens it, and while philisophically the same chassis, it will not perform the same.

Personally, I like both, and there is no doubt that both will walk bigger dogs on a race track, but one disadvantage to the Type-R is finding one that isn't super expensive, beat to crap, or has a salvaged title.

Really, he wouldn't go wrong with either. He needs to drive both, and see what he prefers.

[aero]

As far as being a souped up civic/teg...

An Evo MR is just a factory souped up lancer... a car made to be a cheap, gas efficient 4 cyl. yeah, they changed a whole lot on both cars, but in the end, its still based off the lancer. Im not saying the TypeR is a crappy car, nor is the evo mr, just stating a fact.

In the end, it depends on what he wants.

IMO, if I were going to grab up an ITR, I would just get an integra, and start modding it. Making it cheaper, and less likely to be stolen.

edit: One more thing you have to worry about with an ITR is it being totally ragged on. You still have people that totally rag on s2k's but you have a better chance of it being taken care of correctly since it is a more expensive car.

[1990HybridCB7]

I would definately go with the s2k... no bias or anything

the type r... is just a souped up civic. And it gets hella attention from theives.

The s2k's you do need to upgrade the alarm to something that at least has a proximity sensor, since losers with civics enjoy stealing the seats out of the s2k.

00-01 have plastic rear window, 2.0 liter engine, and somewhat OK 16" wheels. Some cars also have a clutch "buzz" when decelerating in gear from higher rpms. Its the clutch springs buzzing around, doesnt hurt anything, but is an annoying sound. They got rid of it as the years progressed.

02-03 have glass rear window (but its about half the size), still a 2.0, same wheels and headlights. On some of the latest ones, they started putting a clutch delay valve. Which is for when you drop the clutch, it ends up slowly easing it out. The stock rear diff's do not hold up well to launching/clutch drops. Quite a lot of little things have also been changed, stiffer suspension, tweeters, better speakers. IMO, an 02-03 would be ideal.

04-05 have glass rear window, nicer headlights, tail lights IMO, and different front/rear bumpers. The rear diff was reinforced (similar to a comptech rear end). Obviously the 2.2 liter, and nicer set of 17" wheels. The rear suspension is a bit reworked.

06+ wheels are 17's and look the same as before, but they are slightly more rounded. Many of the upgrades are small.


In the end... the s2000 was made to be a sports enthusiasts car. It still lacks torque, and off the line power(mainly since you dont want to blow a diff), but you can take on any car you want in the twisties with no problem. There is not all that much trunk room, but more than any cars that it competes with (boxter/m3/sky/solstice). For the money, there is nothing better, and the only things that I have heard of people upgrading to after the s2k and not looking back are the Porsche Cayman S, and Lotus Elise's. Not bad for a dependable car with a bit of power that looks awesome aswell. They are a bit twitchy in the rain, but that is typically because they are driven hard a lot more than other cars.

You will not be able to make all that much more HP out of one with bolt ons. IHE are done pretty much for sound and looks as you MAY gain a few HP. By extracting 240hp out of 2 Liters, N/A, Honda took as much out of it as it had. Many people go turbo or s/c, and make relatively good power (280 whp -550whp.)

Thanks, I was waiting for your input since you have one.

After reading all these new posts, I guess there are alot of LITTLE differences between the AP1 and AP2. The only thing that gives me a cause for concern is the whole differntial thing. Its not really that bad is it? I mean I know if my brother were to go with the S2K, he defintly wouldn't be really beating on it but he would put it through its paces once in awhile but not anything too wild. My brother also really likes the idea of it being a two seater,( since he is coming from having a full sized SUV) now needs no excuse for friends asking him for a ride. He wants it to just be him and another person and not a whole crowd with him in his car

abdielitopr, he gave it some thought but for the same price you'd be getting into a much older NSX and I don't really think it'd be ideal as a DD, it just seems too exotic (Which is a good thing) but not as a DD you'd take everywhere with you and again to have the potential to have it stolen since its alittle more rare than the S2K.

Accord R33, I was hoping you'd post. Helps me get the other side of the story too since you technically own a Type R and from what I've read in your previous posts in other threads, have alot of knowledge of the Type R, thanks


Thanks alot for all the help so far guys, gives me alot of insight to both sides. BTW, I took a look at both gen S2K's at my job today and the AP2's redline is alittle lower than the AP1's. The interior on the AP2 seemed alittle nicer too.

[NAiL05]

AP2 is a refined AP1 basically. They upped the displacement which made it redline 1k lower. EIther way both are nice cars and I wouldnt mind an ITR.

[1990HybridCB7]

I wouldn't mind the Type R either but I would just worry too mucha bout it getting stolen.

[owequitit]

Actually, the NSX is perfectly daily driveable.

People may not want to do it for whatever reason, but the car is perfectly capable of doing it and reliable in the process.

Parts are not cheap, and you are likely to get an older one for the price, but that doesn't mean it was beat up necessarily.

A lot of them get the babied garage treatment like a Ferrari would.

They will generally have more miles though, because unlike most Ferraris, you can put miles on them without much concern about it breaking all the time.

[NAiL05]

Yep what owequitit said NSX id dd'able. Plus a 90-91 or so model costs about the price of a new accord or its close to there.

[growguy]

Actually, the NSX is perfectly daily driveable.

People may not want to do it for whatever reason, but the car is perfectly capable of doing it and reliable in the process.

Parts are not cheap, and you are likely to get an older one for the price, but that doesn't mean it was beat up necessarily.

A lot of them get the babied garage treatment like a Ferrari would.

funny you say that. there is someone who lives a few blocks from me and owns a really nice black nsx... and drives it all year round. you might be saying big deal... but there is snow on the ground here for a solid 5 months a year. so yes, it seems to me that if this dude can drive his nsx in the snow you could surely drive an nsx everyday in good weather.

[GSteg]

Acutally, it was kinda made for the track. Not specifically as a race car, but as a car that would succeed at both.

And yes, the Type R chassis IS based on the GS-R, but it is also substantially modified, so they are not one in the same.

Like R33 said, it was significantly strengthened. That has a similar effect as putting a roll cage in a car. It substantially stiffens it, and while philisophically the same chassis, it will not perform the same.

What I'm trying to say is, no matter how much Honda beefs up the GSR chassis to make an ITR, it's still stuck with the GSR platform.

Kind of like how you can make civics run 12s, but in the end, a car made for the drag will have more potential.

[owequitit]

What I'm trying to say is, no matter how much Honda beefs up the GSR chassis to make an ITR, it's still stuck with the GSR platform.

Kind of like how you can make civics run 12s, but in the end, a car made for the drag will have more potential.

Yes, I understand that it will still be a Teg fundamentally.

What I am trying to say is that it is not exactly the same as a Teg either.

Go drive a GS-R and then a Type R if you don't believe me.

I haven't personally been able to drive a Type-R, but I know how the GS-R drives, and I know what people who have driven both say.

I have also driven different versions of the same chassis, not necessarily, a Teg, some stripped some not. You can tell a big difference even without the chassis reinforcements. Preludes and Accords share similar structures, yet even fully loaded the Lude is a more engaging drive than the Accord. Partly because of weight, partly because of setup.

The Type R is stiffer, lighter, more powerful, more setup for hard driving, better balanced, etc. etc. etc. It also has a standard LSD which makes a WORLD of difference in a FF car, as far as handling is concerned. Rather than getting understeer in a turn under power, it WILL tuck the nose further into the turn. That is exactly what a FR car does.

Welding gussets on a GS-R isn't necessarily going to make a Type R either, because Honda put a lot of engineering, computer power, and R&D into their gussets.

An individual outside of a large race team doesn't have those kinds of resources. Not to say it can't be done, but it isn't going to be a matter of welding on some sheet metal either.

They are not the EXACT same car, and that is my point.

[GSteg]

And exactly what did Honda do with the ITR chassis that's significant other than add some extra weld spots?

Driving a GSR and an ITR will not make it any more factual than looking at the cars the way they are. You've already pointed out that the ITR has LSD, it's lighter, etc, but those are merely variables in which driving both cars would not say much about the chassis difference. If you want to isolate the variables, change out the ITR's component to make it exactly like the GSR, but retain the chassis itself. I am willing to bet there will not be much differences between the two cars in terms of driving dynamics.

The ITR performs like a different animal compared to the ITR more so because of LSD, more power, lighter weight, stiffer suspension. I am not talking about those, but rather the chassis itself. No one is disagreeing that ITR and GSR are not the same. Taking things out, adding stiffer sway bars, springs, etc are not what I call the chassis, even though they work hand in hand.

And by the way, I never said they were the same cars. Note that I said the ITR chassis is based on the regular integra platform. That's a fact. I dont see how this could turn into a debate when no one mentioned the ITR being the same as a GSR.

My friend that I mentioned earlier had a GSR prior to his ITR and now S2000. I will ask him for his opinion on the variance between the GSR and ITR since he has driven those two cars extensively. I'll also ask a buddy of mine (on acura-legend.com) to see if he has any info on the difference between the ITR and GSR chassis, seeing as how he's an Acura Master Technician (and previous owners of a gsr and a few ITR), he'll probably wont have trouble looking up a few things

I think we're just mixed up on our own definition. It's a mute point to argue about this right now since the thread is about ITR vs s2000. My reason still stand that the S2000 is a better performer since it was specifically designed to be a performer from the start.

[1990HybridCB7]

Actually, the NSX is perfectly daily driveable.

People may not want to do it for whatever reason, but the car is perfectly capable of doing it and reliable in the process.

Parts are not cheap, and you are likely to get an older one for the price, but that doesn't mean it was beat up necessarily.

A lot of them get the babied garage treatment like a Ferrari would.

They will generally have more miles though, because unlike most Ferraris, you can put miles on them without much concern about it breaking all the time.

Like you said parts are not cheap. And driving it every single day, your gonna wear down parts to the point where your gonna have to replace them.I'm pretty sure that it is very doable to have it as a DD but it just seems that the car is better than that and desrves better, I wouldn't wanna be driving such a nice car through the snow and any other inclement weather like that. its also going back to the whole theft thing, IDK about my brother but I am always paranoid about my shit getting stolen. Its a much older car (If you want to get into one for about the same price of an S2K) thus having probably more ways to break into than a newer car which would also be better equiped to deter potenial car thieves. there aren't many out thier, so that narrows down the choices for potential thieves to scope out your car, I see many more S2K's than I do NSXs' so its just sticking out like a sore thumb whenever you see one and for some thats a good thing, but to tohers like myself do not want all the added attention from the wrong person.

[aero]

The s2k's rear differentials are not totally crap...

but you do have to take it easy on launching the car. You can get a badass launch at about 5k... but the differential just wasnt made for the abuse. Its not a straight line car. There is a local guy around here who beats on his car.... drifts the poor thing, had it in a swamp once, but doesnt baby it at all, and everything is still holding together. So its mainly a launching issue. Thats why Honda put the clutch delay valve on there, a cheaper way to hopefully not have an all out clutch drop on the rear diff. There are plenty of people putting out 300+ HP on stock diff's. The ap2 ones are a little more beefed up as I said before, and are a pretty easy swap to the ap1's. You can also put an rx-7 rear diff in it for all the launching action you want, but I think its about 3k for the kit... never seen it, just from what i have heard.

You will read about the cars being a bit unpredictable as far as the ass end sliding out on you. It is somewhat true... you should NEVER drive with worn down rear tires in the rear, especially if you encounter rain. My buddy totalled his when he was just driving down the road, and the rear end just slid out... straight road, no crazy driving. They need grip. The newer ones supposedly are a little bit more "controlled", but then you lose the all out race car feel.

Something else that contributes to the whole fishtailing stuff is that the stock rear tires were Bridgestone s-02's Im pretty sure. The size on them on the sidewall is a 225 series. But when you match it up to pretty much any other street tire, it is more the size of a 245. So when you switch brands, and keep with a 225, you are losing valuable grip in the rear, and most tire shops wont know a thing.

But the s2k is a drivers car. If you like to enjoy the ride, and have an awesome all around car, then this is what you need.

As far as liking the newer headlights, tail lights, bumpers... they can all be swapped over, so if he doesnt like what one comes with, you can always switch it up.

Heres a nice little pic from the other night...

[owequitit]

And exactly what did Honda do with the ITR chassis that's significant other than add some extra weld spots?

Driving a GSR and an ITR will not make it any more factual than looking at the cars the way they are. You've already pointed out that the ITR has LSD, it's lighter, etc, but those are merely variables in which driving both cars would not say much about the chassis difference. If you want to isolate the variables, change out the ITR's component to make it exactly like the GSR, but retain the chassis itself. I am willing to bet there will not be much differences between the two cars in terms of driving dynamics.

The ITR performs like a different animal compared to the ITR more so because of LSD, more power, lighter weight, stiffer suspension. I am not talking about those, but rather the chassis itself. No one is disagreeing that ITR and GSR are not the same. Taking things out, adding stiffer sway bars, springs, etc are not what I call the chassis, even though they work hand in hand.

And by the way, I never said they were the same cars. Note that I said the ITR chassis is based on the regular integra platform. That's a fact. I dont see how this could turn into a debate when no one mentioned the ITR being the same as a GSR.

My friend that I mentioned earlier had a GSR prior to his ITR and now S2000. I will ask him for his opinion on the variance between the GSR and ITR since he has driven those two cars extensively. I'll also ask a buddy of mine (on acura-legend.com) to see if he has any info on the difference between the ITR and GSR chassis, seeing as how he's an Acura Master Technician (and previous owners of a gsr and a few ITR), he'll probably wont have trouble looking up a few things

I think we're just mixed up on our own definition. It's a mute point to argue about this right now since the thread is about ITR vs s2000. My reason still stand that the S2000 is a better performer since it was specifically designed to be a performer from the start.

It has already been acknowledged several times in this thread that the Type R is based off of the standard Integra (Duh, it is an Integra Type R).

It was also not said that the chassis was the fundamental reason for any one change, as the overall Type R package was responsible for the overall change. The chassis changes were one element of that. A chassis change simply means that it is NOT exactly the same as a GS-R.

As for the significance of spot welds, the primary difference between a Lancer, and Lancer EVO chassis is that the EVO has more spot welds, mostly concentrated around the door area. The EVO chassis is MUCH stiffer than a standard Lancer chassis. If correctly placed, spot welds have a significant effect. Also, in order to place those in the best place, we need to have some finite element analysis data, as well as stress and load data. That allows us to make our welds more effective. That isn't cheap. Just spot welding isn't going to be as effective. We can also make our stampings slightly thicker, work them on the same assembly line, with the same tooling, even though the result won't be the same.

Accord R33's statement, which sparked this whole debate, was simply to respond to the comments that the Type R is simply a GS-R or Civic, which is wholly untrue. The driving experience is different to the point of effectively being in a different car. It is still an Integra, but most who have driven one will tell you it isn't like all the others.

Ask R33. He has already accomplished your proposed experiment, with a Type-R drivetrain in a GS-R. With just the drivetrain, the result is huge.

Anyways, attempting to get back to the topic again.

I personally would choose the S2000.

As for the NSX being expensive, they are that, but they pretty much run like a normal Honda which means if they are cared for, and maintained, they can go for well over 100,000 miles with no issues. That really offsets the perceived cost disadvantage because you aren't going to be fixing it often.

As far as theft goes, a lot of people still don't even know what they are, and there isn't that much of a market for it, because there are very few of them, and a lot of the owners know other owners, so if one disappeared in AZ and then that stuff came up for sale in CA or something, they are liable to know about it.

Also, the parts don't really interchange with other Honda's, which is something that can't be said of the Type R. Anything with a B series VTEC in it is pretty much A) on the hitlist. At least where I live.

And even to a greater degree than the S2000, the NSX is sex on wheels.

But again, I think he would be happy with an S2K or a Type R, but the Type R is probably the most likely to get stolen.

[Accord R33]

thanks scott..im not trying to say the typeR is necessarily a better car, but its been described as being just a higher trim integra, when it is really much more.