The downfall of Domestic Production

[aero]

The downward spiral of GM, and the cause:

I was talking to a guy at work about this today and just wanted to see what people had to say about it. Yeah, they make crap cars, if they didnt have a big contract with rentals, they woulda gone outta business a long time ago. But how long until people really start to notice that the business is done?

We have the unions that are pushing the companies factories out of the country by forcing GM to employ too many workers for a certain job. IMO unions are a joke, kinda like social security. It was created with the best intents way back when, but as the country grew and grew, it became obsolete, and now is just taking down companies. If the unions were not as greedy as they are today, I can guarantee that it would not be so hard to compete with foreign competition, and many of the companies and factories would still be here in the US.

An example of how the unions bring foreign goods into our contry and push the domestic stuff out is conventions in the union states.

Domestic companies have stopped attending conventions in Chicago and the like because you have to pay a different union employee for everything.
*To get the stuff to the convention, a union employee must be hired, in a union rented truck.
*to unload, another one must be hired
*to set up the display, another one has to be hired
*To plug something in at your display, you have to hire a union electrician.
*and I am sure I missed a few union employees along the way.

All that is work that you could have had two employees from your business do most of, but instead, you must help keep people employed.

So, the domestic companies drop out of major conventions, and guess who is now filling their spot, and getting their goods to market... Thats right, Korean goods, and other countries that havent had a chance before. All being imported at a cheaper price than domestic goods, so you know once it gets in, people will keep buying, dropping the sales for domestic goods. Its just a cycle that keeps going until the US is not producing anymore goods unless something is done about it.


So yeah, Honda has been in Ohio for 20 some years, why dont they have to employ 4 workers to put on the door (one for each bolt)? That is because, since they have been here, the workers have no reason to want a union. Honda keeps its workers happy, and makes them feel worth a damn, something domestic companies have no idea about. At any time, if a worker on the line at Honda notices a problem, they can stop the assembly line. Of course, you dont do it for stupid shit, but you have that power.

Anyways, what is your take on the situation? I gotta run and get the car ready for the trip..

[fac90]

Domestic automakers are more concerned about production quantities rather than quality. They just to make as many cars in a day and thats it. Ford and GM are relying on Americans to stay loyal to American made goods and buy their cars. As you can see the trend, more Americans are buying imports because they want to enjoy their lives and not deal with car headaches.

As I said it before, most of the older passenger cars on the road (greater than 10 years) are not domestics.

[HondaFan81]

Pretty much I agree on everything said. I like where Honda's mindset is at and can't stand the domestic mindset. That's why we have 7 cars. 6 of them are Hondas and 1 is a 87 Mercury Sable wagon that we've kept running for a long time. It has 290,XXX miles and has not been too bad of a car. It still has had some issues that were just plain retarded from poor quality to retarded mechanics at dealers/shops that don't know how to do their job appropriately the first time. Latest fiasco on this car is my friend and I rewired the engine (ina sense of the word) and simplified the system so it can keep running reliably. After doing that, I better understood the real stupidity on whomever engineered the engine setup electrically.

[oneoffaccord]

i really didnt want to read all of this but i would still have to agree. my friend works for chevy/ cadillac and they are slow as hell. in sales and service.they are trying to give away cars. not really but you get the point. foriegn cars are here to stay and american cars dont like that at all. so they try to come out with something new but its built like shit. so you tell me

[laz93se]

it all comes down to one word (QUALITY) at a reasonable price.something the japs beat them to long time ago.

[aero]

Yeah, I mean it sucks to hear but I guess its just from people getting greedy (unions) and wanting too much, which finally pushes the company over.

I know its not exactly this way, but for the most part it is...
Once upon a time, the factories did need al the employees that they have and some more. But that was before machines. Now that machines/robots are doing more precision work, they need less people, but still have to employ them.

I talk to quite a few people who are line managers at companies like GM, and people get in trouble for doing more than the small job that they are designated to do. So if you put on your part, and are able to help someone else, typically they wont like it, and you will get in trouble basically because you are "endangering" their job.

It just makes me wonder if the big companies that are still left will have a big reform and dump unions to be able to stay in this country, or if in the near future, the US really isnt manufacturing much anymore.

The easy way is obviously just to push it off like polititians always do (social security). If they would actually try to really do some good for the people in the long run, it would need to be in the massive layoffs of prettymuch useless people at the job... people that they dont need. In the end, the company will actually be able to compete with foreign goods while staying in the domestic market.

Of course, I am sure I am not the only person to see this, and if the government really wanted to help out, they would have gotten in there and done what they could. Of course, most of the employees would rather keep their jobs for the short period, ending up in the company moving out of the country rather than searching for a new job and helping to keep the companies here.

Oh well, just kinda pisses me off that the same employees who protest and picket all the companies closing down and moving out are really the same employees that brought it to that point, only if they would open their eyes.

[HenRoc]

Well, domestic's in a way don't really appeal to the consumer. I think a majority of it is that yes they don't focus on quality, they're more concerned about a certain market where 10 percent of owners take SUV's off road.

And their main focus is just to make money by selling SUV's.


I think Honda has come along way since establishing themselves in 1976 with the Civic. Their ethic has always been to offer more at a considerably low price.


You think the Big Three would follow suit but they're too worried about sales in the SUV and Truck department that they've lost touch in the medium to small car segment.

I'd only deal with Ford for their trucks.

[aero]

Well, domestic's in a way don't really appeal to the consumer. I think a majority of it is that yes they don't focus on quality, they're more concerned about a certain market where 10 percent of owners take SUV's off road.

And their main focus is just to make money by selling SUV's.


I think Honda has come along way since establishing themselves in 1976 with the Civic. Their ethic has always been to offer more at a considerably low price.


You think the Big Three would follow suit but they're too worried about sales in the SUV and Truck department that they've lost touch in the medium to small car segment.

I'd only deal with Ford for their trucks.

yeah, you would think they would have gotten the message a while ago, and started changing. But we have yet to see that.

Fords trucks are good for hauling and beating up on, but for a regular DD truck that is hauling something once in a while, the Nissan titan or the honda ridgeline have taken the throne and run with it.

The thing is... can you only imagine what the auto marketplace would be like over here if we always got what japan got... skylines, silvias, type r's, the list goes on and on. But if we got something like that, domestics would have been done Long long ago. Then again, thats probably the reason that the cars werent allowed over here in the first place.

And for the truley "buy american, fu** the japs" people, last time I checked, honda and toyota help out GM with engines and technology to give them a chance...if honda and toyota wanted them out of business, it would have been done by now.

[accordme93]

My buddy's aunt is a lead designer in Marysville. He toured the plant and said it was cool as hell. And I do hear that Honda treats their workers extremely well. I think he was offered a job there if I remember right.

[d2privat11]

Reinventing old concepts is also important, not GM's "let's rebadge the Cavalier, give it a new shape and keep everything else the same including the reliability and name it the Cobalt!!!!!!"

[gloryaccordy]

Not to sound apocalyptic or pessimistic, but outsourcing is probably the most detrimental thing to happen to the American economy.

GM makes decent cars now, but their problem is in MANAGEMENT. I don't care how good the product is; if the company that makes it can't function properly I just can't trust the product. Once they sort all that stuff out, if they ever do, they should be fine.

It's crazy; back in the day America was a land of innovation and technological advances (Oppenheimer, the race to the moon, the first automatic transmission) and now it's like we're falling behind in everything. WTF?

[owequitit]

There is much more to the failure of companies like GM, than to be able to pinpoint it to one select group of people, but I do agree that the unions are a major contribution to the issue.

One of the things that irritates me is that they push this "Buy American, Support America" crap like the average consumer isn't smart enough to tell the difference.

Why would I buy a GM or Ford or Chrysler car built in Mexico, with Korean parts, that won't make it to 100,000 miles, just because they say that is supporting America?

Or,on the other hand, do I go buy a "Jap" Toyota, Honda or Nissan, that is built in the US, primarily of US parts content that is being built by US workers in US factories, and still get a great car for the money that will probably give me at least 150,000 miles of trouble free service.

If you can't see the obvious answer, then you are blind. Technically, the US Gov's dividing line for a domestic car is anything made of at least 70% US parts content. By that definition, the Accord is actually more domestic than the Ford Fusion...

The only difference is the soil where the company HQ is located. Since GM has a large percentage of its outstanding stock held by owners outside the US and the Jap companies have a large percentage of their stock held by people in the US, the location of a building is becoming more irrelevent every single day.

Unfortunately, for the US auto makers, the average consumer has become much smarter over the last 20 years and the BS isn't selling cars anymore.

Honda gives me more for less:

More gas mileage (especially with age)

Better build quality

Waaaaaaaaaay better dependability/resale value

More power/performance from fewer cylinders

More comfort

More space than many domestics

etc. etc. etc.

Obviously, I speak of cars that are of relative age/price range. Yet the "domestic" guys criticize me for buying "Jap Crap." Whatever dude, go back to your trailer park.

Sure, to carbureted pushrod guys that don't understand EFI or VTEC, I am just a ricer, but whatever, I can just as easily lump them into the redneck category.

Unfortunately, the US companies have the technical resources to build the cars needed, they just don't have the leadership or the corporate goal. Everyone has to be in on it and believe, from the guy washing it at dealership to the assembly line to the CEO. That is why Honda and other have been so successful. The line workers understand the mission, as do the dealers, lube techs and customers. Why do you think the morning calesthenics at Japenese plants are so important? Sure they increase health, but they also get you motivated to work, they get everyone on the same page, and working together, etc.

The new Z06 is a prime example of what they CAN do. It is a superb sports car. While not the end all to end all performance cars, you would have a hard time finding something to outrun it at anywhere near $70K. Plus, to get a 427 small block to actually PULL to 7grand with a warranty is quite an acheivement. We will see how they hold up, but if they do fall apart it will be because of the cost cutting bean counters, not the engineers.

My favorite domestic assembly line story is this.

A guy bought a brand new Oldsmobile, and it had the clunking sound all the time. He had it into the dealer many, many times to try and get it fixed, but they couldn't find it. Finally, out of desperation, the mechanics at the dealership tore the car apart. When they got to the gas tank, they noticed something rattling, so they cut it open. Inside was a steal plate with the following inscription.

"If you found this plate, I have succeeded." It had the workers name inscribed below, with his local UAW #.

What an ass, but it does show the mentality.

[owequitit]

Not to sound apocalyptic or pessimistic, but outsourcing is probably the most detrimental thing to happen to the American economy.

GM makes decent cars now, but their problem is in MANAGEMENT. I don't care how good the product is; if the company that makes it can't function properly I just can't trust the product. Once they sort all that stuff out, if they ever do, they should be fine.

It's crazy; back in the day America was a land of innovation and technological advances (Oppenheimer, the race to the moon, the first automatic transmission) and now it's like we're falling behind in everything. WTF?

Outsourcing isn't inherently bad, the domestics just used it as an opportunity to severely cut costs, rather than using it as an opportunity to cut costs a little bit and maintain a standard of quality. Look how much of your Honda is outsourced. You will find Hitachi, Nippondenso, Nippon Seiki, Mitsuba, Matushita stuff all over our cars, all outsourced. But when Honda and Toyota did it, they held the supplier to a quality standard. The outsource companies knew up front, if they didn't perform to that standard, they wouldn't stay around.

The domestics outsourced, to many of the same companies as Honda and Toyota, and then they went back to their suppliers and demanded double digit cost cust fromt them. Guess what suffered?

The other thing that is the foundation of Japanese manufacturing (it is consistent with their patient and detail oriented social structure too) is W. Edward Demmings system of Total Quality Management.

This is basically a statistical analysis process that strives toward 0 defects. Let's say Honda designs an engine that has 1 in every 100,000 fail. The next production cycle, they work to get that down to 1 every 1,000,000 and then 10,000,000 and then 100,000,000 and so on and so forth. They continue this process ceaselessly and endlessly until perfect production is achieved. Obviously, perfection won't be achieved, but we must always strive for it.

This is mainly what has allowed them to continuously upgrade and add complexity to their cars without sacrificing reliability. Look how much more cool stuff there is in an '06 Accord EX V6 with 6speed and Navi, then there was in the original Accord. And reliability has remained the same or even increased!

If you just add more stuff, you are going to have more problems, but if you add stuff concurrently with reducing failure problems, then it becomes possible to give more features and still hold the line on reliability. Another benefit is fewer wasted resources, which translates directly into reduced operating costs, higher revenue, and greater profits. This in turn allows them to hold the line on pricing at the same time they are selling more features and not sacrificing reliability. You can see how this can very quickly lead to a superior product base (which it did).

GM is suffering because they have lost consumer confidence. I don't know if I go and buy a GM whether or not I am getting a lemon . I am getting a generally inferior product for slightly less cash, but most sane people would rather pony up the extra cash for something they KNOW will last. That is why GM is in trouble, and why Honda and Toyota buyers are so loyal.

There are a lot of reasons that the product has suffered, but if people aren't confident in what they are buying they will either a) not pay market price as easily, or b) not buy it at all, both of which are currently happening.

America is falling behind in everything. We will continue to fall behind in everything. The underlying cause is pretty simple.

We know that we aren't failing because we don't have the ability to innovate. To this day, we innovate a pretty large percentage of the total technology.

We know it isn't because we don't have the freedom to innovate. We are among the highest in terms of freedom to create and innovate, and we go to great lengths to make sure that freedom is preserved.

The problem is the people.

Kids today don't want to be told that it takes a lifetime of hard work, education, perserverance and discipline to stay in the front. They want to hear that everything should be handed to them, with no effort on their part. It is very easy to see this mentality if you look closely. How many kids complain about doing their homework, or being nerds, or taking out the trash. Our society has promoted an attitude of Gimme Gimmes. Nerds push technology and innovation. In the space race days, the hottest guys around were engineers. What happened? Why should people like Bill Gates be chastised their whole lives? Who has contributed more to the world, Bill Gates, or the greatest sports player to ever live (whoever that may be in your eyes)?

"I want this or I want that". Well then, go get a job, save your money, and get it. If you buy too many CD's and can't afford it, TOUGH SHIT! Start all over. Everyday, I hear about how it was a conspiracy, or the man held me down, or he screwed me, or corporate America sucks. They screw you because YOU let them.

I hardly ever hear anybody say "Golly Gee, I really don't like where I am in life. What could I have done to better myself today?"

It is also hard to really enact a plan of success when success sometimes takes decades to acheive, and the average person considers 3 weeks long term goal setting. How many times have you heard a rich teenager piss about not getting something right now? Instant gratification isn't conducive to success in most cases.

I read a survey about 1 year ago. They polled Chinese school children and US school children. The question? How are you going to succeed in life?

85% of Chinese children responded that they were going to work hard to get good grades, so they could go to a good college, so they could get a good job.

85% of US children responded that they were going to win the lottery or inherit a fortune from a relative.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..... Coincidence? I think not.

Bottom line. We have all of the money and the lifestyle that everyone else wants. They are willing to do what it takes to get it and we are not willing to do what it takes to keep it. Nobody in this world owes anybody anything, and we will learn that one way or another. Success, wealth and happiness are not guaranteed. We were guaranteed the PURSUIT of happiness. Nothing more.

Everything from the time you are born until the time you die, is stressful hard and overwhelming. Nature set it up that way to insure the survival of the fittest. It is evolutionary pressure at work.

Disagree with me or call me a quack all you want. In 100 years, we will all be working for the Chinese, unless there is a sever 180 in our thought process (which there won't be).

P.S. This wasn't aimed at you Glory, I just thought that your post was a good jumping off point.

But I digress...

[laz93se]

damn you just put the nail in the coffen!^^^ i agree, i think the u.s. has just fallen way behind and is struggling to climb it's way up.

[cjv998]

Awesome posts guys, keep it up . It's cool to see different angles on this topic. And for my .02, I think Americans are becoming too apathetic and lazy. As said above, there's the whole mentality of getting everything handed to you with no effort on your part. Lack of motivation and drive is a big thing too, and closely related I suppose. We've come under the impression that we're number one, and don't feel we have to put forth an effort to stay there.