The downfall of Domestic Production

[owequitit]

Apathy and Greed always spell the beginning of the end.

[wlfpck]

Reinventing old concepts is also important, not GM's "let's rebadge the Cavalier, give it a new shape and keep everything else the same including the reliability and name it the Cobalt!!!!!!"

but i kinda like the colbalt....

[owequitit]

but i kinda like the colbalt....

The Cobalts are OK, but they were obsolete by the time they hit the showroom.

Here's why:

The domestics do what is known in the industry as "benchmarking."

It takes about 5 years from the time a car company decides they want to build a new car until it actually shows up in dealerships for sale.

So when they sit down to design a car, they have to try to design something that is BETTER than what will be on the market in 5 years. When they looked at the Corolla or Civic, they had no choice but to look at the existing model, because the replacements for those didn't exist yet. So they were basically looking at the last gen Civic and the current gen Corolla at the very beginning of their life cycle, and then they said "OK, these are the cars we need to match." And match them they did. About the same interior quality, power, performance, NVH etc. That is why it is called "benchmarking." They take the benchmarks of the segment and then try to build something of the same quality etc.

The problem is, by the time the Cobalt hit showrooms, the Civic that they were competing against had less than a year left to live. Now that the '06 Civic is out, which is better than the old one in every way, the Cobalt is behind the competition again. It will be even worse in the next year or so when the new Corrolla debuts, because now the car will have to survive for several years against cars that are newer and better. It is very hard to hit a moving target.

That is why it is so bad to fall behind in the first place, because you have to work 10X harder to play catchup, and then pass the competition. It doesn't seem that hard initially, but the problem is, you don't know what they are going to do, and you are chasing a moving target.

If you ARE the leader, then you basically are constantly just trying to beat yourself, and you only have to keep an eye on where the competition is. If you see someone coming from behind, you step it up a notch. This is why the benchmarks in a segment (BMW, M-B, Accord, Camry) tend to stay there.

It is possible to come from behind, but it is not as easy. And once you do, you have to convince all of the shoppers that you have.

As long as GM can actually build a car that isn't a complete mechanical piece fo crap, they will probably do just fine. But they have to convince the consumer they are capable of doing it, and that takes time.

[gloryaccordy]

I dunno if I mentioned this, but I've driven the new Cobalt and Malibu, and other than the weirdly stiff suspension in the Malibu they're both decent cars. It's just the company behind them that I don't really like too much.

[aero]

SteveB :

yeah, i know if GM did not supply rental car companies, that it wouldnt be the nail in the coffin, that there are still some people that buy domestic. But just think, if all rentals were foreign, there would be more of them around, more people would be subjected to driving/riding in "jap junk" that wouldnt have before, thus stealing more and more customers. Obviously GM doesnt make a whole bunch off the sales of the cars, but at least it gives them something to do with all the employees that would be sitting around otherwise.

Most of the "loyal domestic owners" that are really against the "japs" are just stuck in time. They dont know who the real enemy is, and only know what their parents brainwashed through their thick skulls. But as time goes on, more and more people see that they do have a choice when purchasing, which is really bad news for domestics.

----------

And owequitit... you summed it up. Nothing better to be said. Kids just keep getting lazier and lazier, and another thing that adds to the fire of wanting and getting it now is how nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. And unfortunately I am sure stuff is going to change real quickly for the worse here. I mean... what is going to happen when nobody wants to work because it is too much work. People already trash our country by littering, dont clean up after themselves at home, gain 500 pounds since they cant help themselves.... and its just getting worse and worse.

If you look at Ford overseas, their cars dont have as much as a "crappy" background as they do here. Which again, comes down to everyones attitude.

[owequitit]

I dunno if I mentioned this, but I've driven the new Cobalt and Malibu, and other than the weirdly stiff suspension in the Malibu they're both decent cars. It's just the company behind them that I don't really like too much.

They have actually been pretty decent for awhile. When they are new. My issue with them is that it seems to be more common than not, that they are being peiced together or limped along by 110K. That is the main reason they don't hold their value. I am sure that they are capable of making them last if they want to, and I think maybe they finally see the light. The problem is, now they are so far behind, that I don't know if they will catch up before the $$ runs out. We will see.

Personally, my biggest beef with GM, other than their build quality, is the fact that they absolutely refuse to implement new technology in most of their cars. Powertrains are a prime example. Sure the pushrod V6s that they put in everything have good torque, but that is more a function of the fact that they have to stuff a 3.5-3.8 liter V6 under the hood to be competive with everybody elses 4 cylinder. What is wrong with OHC that keeps them in the stone age, other than being a bunch of cheap bastards. Finally Cadillac has a DOHC V6 that is decent. Hopefully, that technology will start to permeate through the rest of the company. The only OHV engines they make that do anything for me are the V8s and some of those are iffy too.

Except the new ZO6. That sumbitch is a screamer. With the way it breathes, and revs, it is almost like a Honda small block with torque.

Other than that, I actually like quite a few of their cars. They still aren't quite up to import standards in most areas, but hey, this whole quality and competitive product thing is still new, so hopefully they will get the hang of it in the next five years.

[owequitit]

SteveB :

yeah, i know if GM did not supply rental car companies, that it wouldnt be the nail in the coffin, that there are still some people that buy domestic. But just think, if all rentals were foreign, there would be more of them around, more people would be subjected to driving/riding in "jap junk" that wouldnt have before, thus stealing more and more customers. Obviously GM doesnt make a whole bunch off the sales of the cars, but at least it gives them something to do with all the employees that would be sitting around otherwise.

Most of the "loyal domestic owners" that are really against the "japs" are just stuck in time. They dont know who the real enemy is, and only know what their parents brainwashed through their thick skulls. But as time goes on, more and more people see that they do have a choice when purchasing, which is really bad news for domestics.

----------

And owequitit... you summed it up. Nothing better to be said. Kids just keep getting lazier and lazier, and another thing that adds to the fire of wanting and getting it now is how nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. And unfortunately I am sure stuff is going to change real quickly for the worse here. I mean... what is going to happen when nobody wants to work because it is too much work. People already trash our country by littering, dont clean up after themselves at home, gain 500 pounds since they cant help themselves.... and its just getting worse and worse.

If you look at Ford overseas, their cars dont have as much as a "crappy" background as they do here. Which again, comes down to everyones attitude.

I couldn't agree more. I also don't understand why more people don't get satisfaction out of a good hard day's work. It is so fullfilling knowing that you accomplished something...

And in spite of that, the scientific community expects that by 2050 or so, the average American life expectancy will be very close to 100. The fastest growing demographic group in the US currently is people over 100.

That right there is a testament to our ability to innovate when we want to, because that is all in spite of the fact that we are getting fatter and lazier.

I could never figure out why Ford does that. Take the Focus for example. It was competitive when it came out over here, and would have stayed that way, if they had brought over the next gen to the states. What did they do? Kept it in Europe and made us put up with the old one for another 5 or 6 years. The car is essentially the same as the Volvo S40, which is selling very well for $40K. Tell me a cheaper version with a lot of the same quality, refinement, and technology wouldn't have sold well.

[CB7 SOHC F22A6]

straight up word

[wlfpck]

The Cobalts are OK, but they were obsolete by the time they hit the showroom.

Here's why:

The domestics do what is known in the industry as "benchmarking."

It takes about 5 years from the time a car company decides they want to build a new car until it actually shows up in dealerships for sale.

So when they sit down to design a car, they have to try to design something that is BETTER than what will be on the market in 5 years. When they looked at the Corolla or Civic, they had no choice but to look at the existing model, because the replacements for those didn't exist yet. So they were basically looking at the last gen Civic and the current gen Corolla at the very beginning of their life cycle, and then they said "OK, these are the cars we need to match." And match them they did. About the same interior quality, power, performance, NVH etc. That is why it is called "benchmarking." They take the benchmarks of the segment and then try to build something of the same quality etc.

The problem is, by the time the Cobalt hit showrooms, the Civic that they were competing against had less than a year left to live. Now that the '06 Civic is out, which is better than the old one in every way, the Cobalt is behind the competition again. It will be even worse in the next year or so when the new Corrolla debuts, because now the car will have to survive for several years against cars that are newer and better. It is very hard to hit a moving target.

That is why it is so bad to fall behind in the first place, because you have to work 10X harder to play catchup, and then pass the competition. It doesn't seem that hard initially, but the problem is, you don't know what they are going to do, and you are chasing a moving target.

If you ARE the leader, then you basically are constantly just trying to beat yourself, and you only have to keep an eye on where the competition is. If you see someone coming from behind, you step it up a notch. This is why the benchmarks in a segment (BMW, M-B, Accord, Camry) tend to stay there.

It is possible to come from behind, but it is not as easy. And once you do, you have to convince all of the shoppers that you have.

As long as GM can actually build a car that isn't a complete mechanical piece fo crap, they will probably do just fine. But they have to convince the consumer they are capable of doing it, and that takes time.

oh yeah... the 06 civic is out. lol that's just so much better than the cobalt... but still for a domestic the 2 cars i want is the 93 mustang gt.... or the colbalt.... cavelier was looking like a good project car for my friend till we saw its horrible quality in its interior. The cobalt is better. Most of all its really cheap. The mazda3 is just plain t3h sex.

[wlfpck]

oh and someone metioned kids being lazy..... I"M SRY MY CB7 I"LL WASH YOU......after this show...

[gloryaccordy]

They have actually been pretty decent for awhile. When they are new. My issue with them is that it seems to be more common than not, that they are being peiced together or limped along by 110K. That is the main reason they don't hold their value. I am sure that they are capable of making them last if they want to, and I think maybe they finally see the light. The problem is, now they are so far behind, that I don't know if they will catch up before the $$ runs out. We will see.

Personally, my biggest beef with GM, other than their build quality, is the fact that they absolutely refuse to implement new technology in most of their cars. Powertrains are a prime example. Sure the pushrod V6s that they put in everything have good torque, but that is more a function of the fact that they have to stuff a 3.5-3.8 liter V6 under the hood to be competive with everybody elses 4 cylinder. What is wrong with OHC that keeps them in the stone age, other than being a bunch of cheap bastards. Finally Cadillac has a DOHC V6 that is decent. Hopefully, that technology will start to permeate through the rest of the company. The only OHV engines they make that do anything for me are the V8s and some of those are iffy too.

Except the new ZO6. That sumbitch is a screamer. With the way it breathes, and revs, it is almost like a Honda small block with torque.

Other than that, I actually like quite a few of their cars. They still aren't quite up to import standards in most areas, but hey, this whole quality and competitive product thing is still new, so hopefully they will get the hang of it in the next five years.

I mean on one hand, I do agree that they are slow moving with technology; but honestly their suspensions are pretty modern; I think they're all aluminum...the panel gaps are a lot smaller than they used to be, and the cars are just of a higher quality in and out. I mean compare the Cobalt to the Cavalier; they're light years apart...you can't even compare them.

Plus yea, the engines are pretty old...but...they're low maintenance, they get good fuel economy and they don't give much trouble. Plus they're cheap as hell to make. I still think GM should start making the pushrod V6 blocks out of aluminum, but other than that they're fine. A DOHC 24V V6 is great, but a 3.0L high tech V6 is probably the same size and has the same power output as a 3.8L "low tech" V6. For high performance cars, for the most part high tech is better (although the LS7 in the new Z06, even with a 7.0L V8, manages to escape the gas guzzler tax while making 500HP...I think the S2000 gets hit with that tax), but for the average person who doesn't know a driveshaft from a dipstick as long as the engine is quiet, good on gas and low maintenance they couldn't care less WHAT it was...

[owequitit]

I mean on one hand, I do agree that they are slow moving with technology; but honestly their suspensions are pretty modern; I think they're all aluminum...the panel gaps are a lot smaller than they used to be, and the cars are just of a higher quality in and out. I mean compare the Cobalt to the Cavalier; they're light years apart...you can't even compare them.

Plus yea, the engines are pretty old...but...they're low maintenance, they get good fuel economy and they don't give much trouble. Plus they're cheap as hell to make. I still think GM should start making the pushrod V6 blocks out of aluminum, but other than that they're fine. A DOHC 24V V6 is great, but a 3.0L high tech V6 is probably the same size and has the same power output as a 3.8L "low tech" V6. For high performance cars, for the most part high tech is better (although the LS7 in the new Z06, even with a 7.0L V8, manages to escape the gas guzzler tax while making 500HP...I think the S2000 gets hit with that tax), but for the average person who doesn't know a driveshaft from a dipstick as long as the engine is quiet, good on gas and low maintenance they couldn't care less WHAT it was...

I agree, they are light years apart, but with the Cavalier, that wasn't exactly hard to accomplish. It is still not a bag on the Cobalt, but it is somewhat behind the competition. To someone in the market for a new car in that segment, it still has it work cut out vs the Civic, Corolla and now the Caliber (personally, I am indifferent on it, but it is generating a lot of attention).

As far as the engine technology goes, the S2000 doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, and the only reason the Z06 gets away with it is because of the way the EPA has their driving cycle set up. It basically would allow the Vette to do the cycle probably in 6th gear at less than 1,000 rpm, or pretty much just off idle. In the real world, you will probably see 15-20MPG in the city if you stay off of it. That is still decent for what it is though.

As far as their OHV V6s go, they need a significant displacement advantage to make the same acceleration and HP numbers.

For instance, in order to meet the output of the Accord V6 (prior to the 06 update) they had to punch the 3.5liter out to 3.9 liters. It has more torque, but it doesn't have the rev capacity, it weighs more, and it has more weight to haul than the Accord's J30 does. The end result with both being equipped with a 6 speed manual is that the Accord soundly walks the G6, and it gets worse with speed. If you dial them back on the highway, they may get equivalent gas mileage, but if you are romping on them I can pretty much guarantee that the Accord will beat it. It is a simple function of having to fuel the larger displacement. Not to mention the fact that the import engines are more refined, which leads to a more upscale perception, which makes people willing to pay a little more $$, more than offsetting the added cost of the V6.

This is still true and has been true for a long time. Back in the day of my 1990 Accord, GM was barely able to keep the output of the 3.1 (related to the 3.4 that begott the current 3.5 and 3.9 liter V6) at, or just above, the output of the F22. Bottom line, I have never had trouble stomping on a 3.1 liter powered car. Even the last gen Malibu's with the 3.1, weren't a problem with my stock F22A4.

Unfortunately, I know this not because I am a street racer like it sounds all the time, but because everybody in my town thinks they are Dale Earnhardt in a NASCAR race, and they put themselves into positions where they are dangerous. Then when you try to get away from them so they can't kill you, the "race" ensues. You know stuff like trying to merge into a hole that doesn't exist, or trying to pass on the right on a 50' stretch of pavement, etc etc.

OHV is good for packaging reasons, but ultimately, the 3.9 in the G6 isn't really smaller (if it is, it isn't by a significant margin), it weighs more (mostly due to the iron block you mentioned) and doesn't really have the power delivery. Besides, the J30 in the Accord is SMALLER than the 4 bangers.

In my mind, all of GMs excuses for keeping OHV are simply a way to justify not investing in better technology. OHV is ok, but it just doesn't have the refinement, which is one of things that has allowed the imports to steal sales from the domestics. Again it is the perception of refinement and quality.

Plus, having driven a lot of domestic cars with V6s, the cammer import engines are just better. Would you rather have the 3.5 in the Malibu, or the 3.5 in the Altima?

[gloryaccordy]

I'm torn on the pushrod vs. OHC issue. I mean power to weight & size, if the pushrod motors were aluminum, even if they were of higher displacement they'd be a lot shorter than an equally powerful DOHC V6 with less displacement. DOHC heads aren't very space efficient...the low hood height wouldn't have been possible with a DOHC motor on the C6 Vette, for example.

The only disadvantages the OHV engines have are that in higher revs they're thrashy and inefficient...and that GM hasn't tried to be innovative with them. Having a separate cam for the intake and exhaust valves would simply be a matter of putting another cam on top of the one there; and with that they could have legitimate variable valve timing (which I think is a waste on an OHV engine, but eh, they're adamant about them)...

....

And in any case, Ford and DCX make unarguably competent high tech cars. The Duratec is MORE advanced than the J30 and on par with motors like the VQ35 and Toyota's hi-po corporate V6 (the 2GR-FSE I think it's called in the IS350/Avalon), albeit a little less efficient. And Dodge/Chrysler has full access to MB's engines and suspensions, which they appear to be taking advantage of. PLUS, Chrysler was really the first company to utilize a 3.5L DOHC V6 in the '99 300M...and that car is an underappreciated rocket. (I remember seeing one with an intake and exhaust chirping into second...mind you those cars are only auto tranny equipped)

Like I said before, the domestic's problems aren't really the cars anymore. I haven't driven the new Civic yet, but I would recommend a Cobalt to somebody or rock with one for a daily driver if I had to over the overpriced imports. And when it comes to used cars and retaining value, peeps shouldn't be looking at a depriciating item as some kind of investment anyway...so I'd rather get a car that doesn't hold its value and get a good car for cheap.

Plus with all the shared platforms and everything it doesn't really make sense to put down many of the domestics. You can't like the Mazda6 and hate the Ford Fusion. You can't like Opels and hate GM's. They're all the same cars with different shells. However, the customer experience and warranty policies are what probably keep peeps away from domestics, and the fact that the companies are in trouble.

Recently, the local Infiniti dealership swapped places with the Ford dealership...the Ford dealership had a huge lot on a big highway while the Infiniti dealership had a little corner place tucked away somewhere. Now the Ford dealership is tucked away...I forget it's even there and I pass it everyday coming to work...now while I know their cars are sound, for whatever reason the fact that they had to move to a smaller dealership just turns me off to even checking them out. That's the kind of thing that the domestics need to shake. The imports project images of competence and success, and striving for the continual improvement of quality and eliminating defects. All you hear about in the media regarding domestic companies are financial, management and quality woes. I dunno if the media is also biased, but the point is, if the domestic companies were as profitable and well run as the import companies, they'd have much less problems with their respective images.

[owequitit]

I agree that DOHC isn't as efficient size wise, which is probably why most Honda V6s have been 4 valve SOHC layouts, and I agree that Chevy couldn't get the hoodline with a cammer, although they got a hood line that was about as low with the DOHC 5.7 in the old C4 ZR-1. The C6's hoodline isn't that much lower. I also believe that the added size of a DOHC, offsets the performance limitations associated with your standard OHV head, and the J30 really doesn't have a size disadvantage to the OHV engine of equivalent displacement, in fact it is noticably smaller than GM's 3.1, and I am pretty sure the height difference is negligible.

Ford and DCX do make TECHNICALLY competent and high tech cars, meaning they look equivalent on paper. I would agree with that statement, however they don't have the durability or longevity. Cases in point:

95 Intrepid ES. The 3.5liter had nothing but problems from day 1, most notably overheating. By 30,000 miles, it was falling apart. This was with my Grandmother driving it. It wouldn't have lasted half that long with me. She traded it for a 2000.

1996 Dodge Neon. Same story, developed an exhaust leak mysteriously (later found out that they don't have exhaust gaskets, so over time as the metal distorts, voila exhaust leak). It also had A/C issues from an early age, and mysterious points in time where all of the electrical stuff would just quit, and then mysteriously work later. No simple, common solutions.

1998 Chrysler Concord - By 30,000 it was on the downhill trend, by 60 it was dead.

2000 Dodge Intrepid, by 40,000 miles it was falling apart. They traded it away for something else. It was not driven hard at all, used by a friends wife to get to and from work, with the occasional out of town trip.

My grandmother also has a 2000 Intrepid. It has 17,000 miles on it. It started making funny noises at about 6,000.

It is rated at the same HP and torque as my Mom's 02 Accord V6, yet in the real world it isn't even funny. We all went to the Grand Canyon, 5 people in the Accord, 4 in the Intrepid, all of the coolers, blankets, shoes etc were all loaded into the Accord in hopes that the Intrepid would be able to keep up. It would not,and trust me it was working. Sad thing is, my dad wasn't really trying. My car stomps it, yet on paper, it is at least as technically sophisticated as my mom's car, and more so than my 1990... Obviously, the paper results mean nothing. Compared to my Mom's car, the engine is thrashy, noisy, rough, lacks low end, top end, and got measureably worse gas mileage, while hauling less weight over the same distance at a slower speed. It was simply inferior in every way. AND IT COST MORE!

2002 or 2003 Ford Focus. My cousin got this as a graduation present from college. My aunt now has it. It may have a fair amount of mileage, but I guarantee it is less than my Accord, and it is falling apart.

I like the Chrysler 300M's because they look sexy. But they aren't fast. My mom's car has no issue with them or the new 300 powered by a 3.5 liter for that matter, or any Intrepid I have run accross. Sorry, but stock for stock, they were heavy cars, and I am not real impressed. They were also rated at 253HP and I think right around 230 lb/ft of torque (and yes I was aware that they only came auto tranny).

I could continue ad infinitum pretty much through the lines of all three automakers, but that would take too long.

I am not as interested in "paper sophistication" as I am real world. Perhaps that is why I keep settling on Honda. They don't always have the paper stats, but it comes together in the real world.

For instance. J30 vs Duratec. They have the same displacement, yet the Ford on paper has more sophistication, yet it makes 22 fewer HP in its most powerfull version, only a couple lb/ft more torque, and isn't as refined, and will get STOMPED by an Accord V6, and the new Accord will beat my 1990 in gas mileage, with an automatic.

Sorry, but to me that isn't technically sophisticated. The "technology" is there, but it really isn't.

A V6 Accord will run mirror to mirror with an equivalent Altima ,which is powered by a bigger engine with more torque. This goes for Manny tranny or auto tranny. Before you throw anything out about bolt ons and 13 second cars, the older J30s are also easy to get to 200WHP with bolt ons, and the new ones typically lay down about 215-220WHP in auto tranny form, stock. The main drawback to the old J series engines is that they were only available with a manual transmission for a couple years in the CL Type-S. I have seen 03-05 (about 15 fewer HP than 06) 6 speed Accord Coupes run 14.6-14.3 bone stock, so tell me that it would be really difficult to get them into the 13s. The new Accord Sedan 6 speed will run just a few 10ths slower than that, on ass tires.

Both will stomp most equivalent modern domestics, and I am interested to see how Toyota's new V6 does in the Camry. It is pretty quick in the Avalon, so I imagine that it will be about on par with the others, maybe slightly quicker.

As far as looking at resale value, you are foolish not to. All cars are depreciating assests, and that is why resale value is of the utmost importance. If you are upside down on a loan, on a car that is 3 years old and falling apart (not uncommon in any of the previously mentioned examples), then you are in a pretty bad position aren't you? Now you have to get a new car, still owe on the old one, and may not have a down payment. So what happens? The dealer rolls the negative equity into your new car, and now you are that much further behind, especially if your new car is something that depreciates rapidly.

Resale value is not based on Voodoo witchcraft. It is very simple. Cars that people KNOW are going to last, and companies that people KNOW will be around to service their product are going to hold their value better. It is really that simple. A lot of it is based on historical data, yes, but is that not a good indicator? If the domestics build something worth having for the next 5-10 years straight, with no floundering, no waivering, and no compromising or cheaping out, then their cars will start to hold their value again. Until that happens, they will depreciate like rocks.

Yes they do also have shared platforms, which is a good thing, and has allowed them to increase their refinement substantially. Having said that though, platform sharing alone, does not necessarily make an equivalent platform mate. There is still a lot of stuff that can be different, such as powertrain, suspension tuning, wheelbase, sheetmetal, electronics, safety features, etc. But I do agree that it is a step in the right direction.

The only Chrysler product that has an M-B engine is the Crossfire. I have been hoping that the M-B build quality would trickle down faster than it has though. I can say that they seem to have gotten quite a bit better in the last year or two. I don't hear as many horror stories from people who had to unload their Chrysler product before it came apart.

It's not like I am some close minded teenager that just sits in my closet, reading my Honda Tuning, thinking I am better than everyone else. I have given everyone a chance, and everything I say is based on real world experience. I don't just "imagine" these conclusions.

The biggest problem I have is that I have been tremendously spoiled by a brand that routinely runs for well over 200K without any trouble at all, is built well, has equivalent features for the money, better mileage, is a lot more fun to drive, and apparently has bigger fangs than a lot of other cars, especially in the same category. They are also safer than just about anything on the road. Again, a position gleaned from personal and first hand experience.

I deal with 8-9 Hondas at any given time (we currently own 6 as a family, not including my best friend, who is basically my brother, and his family) and have yet to be disappointed with any of them. In fact the only one that has had any trouble at all is the first one. My Dad's 88. It is primarily age related stuff, but his car was also the poster child for automobile neglect.

Oh, my sister had a fan switch go bad. Other than that, not a single issue. None, with collectively just under 1,000,000 miles almost half of which is on 2 of the 6.

I didn't get into Hondas thinking they were the fastest cars in the world. I liked them for all of the previously mentioned reasons, minus the performance.
The problem is, I have seen what they can very easily do with my own eyes, and everytime I am put in a position where I should be disappointed, I am instead impressed. I always keep an open mind, and consider other products. Up to this point in time, I haven't found anything that meets my criteria as well, and the longer I am around, the less I am impressed with most other cars. If Honda starts building cars that don't last, I'm outta here, and it will be a very long time before they get me back, but until they do I am biased.

That is what GM needs to hear from their customers.

[wlfpck]

Would you rather have the 3.5 in the Malibu, or the 3.5 in the Altima?

i think i want the altima... maybe ..... wait... yeah... the altima

ok in a seriousness, sure people argue that there are domestic cars that have 300k on them and stuff but the number of imports with that kinda of mileage is a lot higher. Plus it was proven somewhere that your maintenace fees over the course of 2 years after the warranty is over would put the domestic at a higher cost to maintain.

ok... and why is there so much attention given to the caliber?