New cb7 crew pt 2.

[Phempa]

Ban me if you want.... I feel the need to defend myself after getting torn apart and locked in.

In response to owequitit's last post...

You should ALWAYS check a car out before buying it. Not doing it is stupid...

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=66283

Here is the original conversation thread that Ray keeps referring to.

I was there when the deal went down. This is what I know.

I will probably get banned for this, but it has gotten out of hand.

What good are we as a community if we don't help protect our members and their interests?

Preventing false information from hurting good reputations, monitoring those with bad reputations, and trying to get the actual facts out on the table are a cornerstone of those responsibilities.

Seems like you're only protecting the interests of your own friend... and being a moderator on this site, you have to power to convince people a lot easier.

Remember, I had someone there with me too. If need be, I can have him join and back up some facts, though I wouldn't expect anyone to believe a n00b who doesn't own a Honda.

1) Phempa approached Ray for the trade, not the other way around. The Benz was listed for $4500 on a local AZ site, and there had been interest.

In fact someone showed up with $4500 cash the day after we sold it.

Ray wanted another Accord, so he figured he would trade, as it seemed he would be able to get back into a modified Accord with a little less effort.

He WAS NOT trying to unload the car. It had been for sale for quite some time, and the price was pretty firm over that time.

He never tried to "unload" the car.

Yes, I approached Ray first with the offer for a trade. I was getting sick of the profiling by police, and having to deal with stupid tickets for "illegal equipment" etc. It's just one of the burdens that come with driving a modified import car that I've been dealing with for about 10 years. I'm done with it.

2) Phempa knew about all known body damage. Anything Ray knew about was readily visible on the outside of the car. Ben was also told about it.

If there was something other than what he was told, Ray didn't know about it.

Ray never tore the car apart, because the bumper damage seemed to be superficial. If there was something underneath, he would have had no way to reasonably know until he took it apart, which he never did.

Even a body shop can't tell you what damage is underneath the surface until they get there. I guarantee it.

Correction, I did NOT know about all the body damage. From the couple of low quality pictures that were posted of the car, it was hard to see if there was anything wrong with the body at all. When I picked the car up, it was EXTREMELY dirty.. covering up most of the imperfections.

One wash later, A LOT more damage was apparent. (not to mention the words "I'm A Pussy" keyed into the trunk that was never noted)

It's not too hard to see the front end damage when you open up the hood. Look directly behind the hole in the bumper and you can see it's mighty smashed up. Because of this, the hood has a large gap on the passenger side relative to the driver side.

I should have noticed the damage when the hood was open on the car, but seeing how it's so easily noticeable, shouldn't I have been informed of it, or had it pointed out to me?

3) The check engine light was throwing the code for MAF sensor, hence why Ben was told that was what it needed.

Benz owners and forums said that it was the most likely cause of the only mechanical issue it had.

That was a tendency to run for a few seconds and then die on a very cold start. It always ran fine on the second start.

Other than that, it ran fine. It went all over the state many times without issue, incidence or complications.

The code was scanned and cleared 3 times. It was the only code that came up, when he scanned it.

I have purchased a brand new MAF sensor on ebay (
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN:IT&ih=008 ). Installed it, and removed the battery cables to reset the ECU. The CEL came back, and it runs just as bad as it had previously.

I was also never told about it dying on cold starts. I have logs of all conversations between me and ray.

Phempa: You can go to Autozone and borrow a scan tool, so there is no reason to use having to buy one as an excuse...

I wasn't aware of this.... I will definitely be renting one soon.

3) The tranny did shift firmly, but there was no other evidence of a problem, such as slippage etc. It was Ray's first Merc, so he thought that might be normal since German cars typically have a different definition of "luxury."

It was not harsh to the point it was slamming gears, but it was firm. Very similar to Honda's auto trannies.

Ben was told about this too.

I was NEVER told about ANY transmission issues. Not once. (again, I have logs)

And the hard shifting isn't so much the problem, as the fierce vibrations in 1st and 2nd gear are. Maybe mounts? Axles? I don't know. I'm not really a mechanic.

4) I was here when Ray had the Benz licensed. There were no issues that came up, so I am not sure what problems Ben is having with the VIN, and mileage etc. It was registered legally up here, with no issue, so other than that information, I don't know what to say.

The problem didn't lie within titling or registering the vehicle... when I went for an inspection, I got a lot of flack from the inspector about the missing VIN number on the dash. He grilled me about the legality of the car, and if it was stolen. He got someone else over, who must have known something about Benz's and checked for a VIN number under the passenger seat. It matched the sticker in the drivers door, so they allowed the inspection to go on. (should I be pulling to carpets out to see if the VIN under the seat is real or imposed?)
It passed inspection, but not with great results.

Oh, and the odometer discrepency... I was never told about.

Now my title has a big ugly C on it that lowers the value of the car greatly.
The title Ray had did not have a C on it... I wonder why.

Now let's talk about the Accord and what I know was said about that and what was actually there...

5) Ben told Ray he was going to have the windshield fixed prior to trading. He didn't get a chance to. That is understandable, as shit happens.

He then told Ray to let him know how much it was to replace, and he would pay him back.

Ray did it as cheaply as possible. The total cost was $100. That accounts for $100 of the $160 in dispute.

Ben offered this, Ray did not ask.

Ray has been paid the $160. I'm sorry it took so long, but money has been especially tight lately.

6) The car "suddenly" developed a vibration on the way from Tucson to Phoenix. This was partly attributed to radius rod bolts that were not tightened on the control arm correctly. That was apparently corrected enroute to Phoenix.

When Ben got to Phoenix, and while they were looking at the cars, Ben told him that he didn't know what caused the vibration, but that if Ray let him know what it was, he would pay for it.

Again, Ben offered, Ray did not ask.

Ray ended up replacing one axle that was obviously bad. That accounts for the other $60 of the $160 in dispute.

The vibration had not gone away by that point, but Ray told me he felt bad about asking for so much and was thus not going to say anything else, and just ask for the $160.

That is exactly what Ray did.

Yes, it suddenly started vibrating upon acceleration. Like I said, I'm no mechanic... but I tried my best on the side of the road at some truck stop/tire repair place to pinpoint the problem. With no jack or tools on hand, I couldn't do much, but luckily the friendly guy at the tire place let me use his jack and tools. After jacking up the car, I had noticed one of the bolts on the passenger side radius arm was completely off (but still in the hole). I tightened that up thinking it would solve the problem. It didn't. I had no idea what the problem could be then, and I was very close to the spot I was meeting you guys at, so I kept going.
I informed ray that the vibration did not go away, and I would pay for whatever part needed to be replaced, which I did.

Make note, this vibration had NEVER occurred before, and up until the day I traded it... the only problem I was having was the CEL for the TPS (which I had replaced as well... got rid of the CEL until that day... it came back on the drive up to meet you guys). I guess I'm not good at adjusting those things.

cont.

[Phempa]

7) At the time of trade, Ben also offered to throw in some extra Accord parts that he wasn't going to be needing, which included 2 sets of JDM headlights.

Again, Ben offered. You can't blame Ray for wanting what he is promised.

Had Ben not said anything, Ray would not have expected the lights.

Nope, the deal was for ONE extra set of JDM/EDM 2-piece headlights, which I don't even have anymore. Ask Will (wrichards2005) where the lights are. They were on his car last, and he has since sold that car. I could care less about the headlights, and I don't think ray should care so much either. Neither of us own Accords anymore.

8) As far as the car itself, it had a tendency to eat and shred alternator belts, which I never heard Ben tell Ray about. Since they only lasted a couple of days to a week, I find it hard to believe there was no knowledge of a problem...

When I got the car from Shane, the belt was missing one of the ribs on it. Other than that, it seemed like a good belt with no rot, so I drove on it like that. About one week prior to trading it, I replaced it with a Goodyear Gatorback... I'm sorry it was causing problems, but like I said, I'm no mechanic. If there was any other problem with the setup, I wouldn't know how to pinpoint it.

9) Ben also neglected to tell Ray about the front crossmember that was bent up into the radiator. It wasn't dented, it was bent.

Now I don't know who was responsible for that, or when it was done, but I do know that who ever did it KNEW they hit something.

I have bent the little crossbar before and though I had crashed. I KNOW that you wouldn't dent something as substantial as the front crossmember without knowing it.

Maybe Ben didn't do it, and it was like that when he bought the car, I don't know.

I am not sure how you could do anything underneath the car and not know about it. Plus the fact, it was so bent, there was no crossbar, and there was no way to put one on there.

I have never bottomed out with that car. I have never gotten into an accident in my life.
Never hit anything, never abused the car, never drove it improperly... for all the 6000 miles I had it.
I have also never crawled under the car. I have jacked it up a bit to work on the front brakes, but never actually gotten under there.
I brought it to Precision Honda/Acura and Brake Max for oil changes, and no one ever told me about a dented crossmember.

The point is that perhaps there were issues with both cars that nobody knew about...

So how is Ray automatically trying to screw someone when he didn't know about all of the problems, but Ben is exempt from the same?

I don't think so.

Ray then called and told Ben about the $160.00 that he spent to fix the problems, that Ben said he would pay for.

He didn't get a response.

That is what prompted him to post the original thread I have referenced above.

You will also notice in that thread, that Ray offered to take the Benz back no questions asked, no holds barred, straight trade for straight trade. He was dead serious.

Phempa politely declined. It is all in the thread.

I didn't want the Accord back at the time. I thought all the problems I was experiencing with the Mercedes were normal, until I rode in a '95 C220 (just the other day)
Felt like a completely different car from a completely different car company.
His felt smooth as butter through all gears, wasn't NEARLY as loud, and actually seemed to perform better, even being a lower model.

I also could not have been able to afford trading back. I had registered and inspected the Benz (over $100) and purchased insurance for it for 6 months.

Ray also wanted more money for other stuff he had done to the car, which I did not have.

Here are a few questions I have:

1) If the car was having so many problems, and he was so unhappy, why did he not attempt to contact Ray?

At no point in time did he call, or complain, or say anything. The first mention of trouble was in the original thread, only AFTER Ray tried to get ahold of him to collect money.

You can't accuse someone of purposefully screwing you if you don't give them a chance to fix it first.

That is not adult behavior. Since both parties involved are adults, they are expected to act as such.

I'm usually working 6 days a week on graveyard shifts. They suck the life right out of me. I work at night, come home, and sleep. I'm lucky if I get to check all my regular sites daily. Shit, I own a site that I'm too busy to keep up with.
Needless to say, my time = money (sleep also = money). I have (literally) thousands of people requesting my input on matters all the time, makes my online life a bit hard to manage.
I'm lucky I found the time to post this long-ass response.

2) If the car was such a big pile of shit, and was such a bad trade, then why did Ben decline to undo the deal and trade back? Ray even offered to drive all the way down to Tucson to make the deal happen, and pick the Benz up.

How can Ray be accused of screwing someone when he very publicly and clearly offered to make it as right as humanly possible by taking the POS Mercedes back at no charge, in exchange for the Accord, which had actually had some work done to it. It had at least had a new windshield and axle put in it with money out of Ray's pocket.

First half explained in previous resonse above ^^

and for the second half... I don't understand. I was going to pay ray the $160, and I was told I would need to pay for the other shit that he bought for it before I could get the car back.

Once again, I'm not rich, and I'm not a thief. I try to make an honest living.

3) Why is the only time there is mention of the Mercedes' problems when Ray tries to collect what Phempa told him he would pay?

Once again, I'm a busy person with a lot of shit going on in life. It may have seemed like I was trying to get out of it, and I can understand how you would think that, but it was not my intention.

Ray has his $160.

As far as Ray's making a profit on the Accord, it depends how you look at it.

1) Ray's ability to sell the Accord for more money than he paid is not a human fault. It means he is smarter than some other people...

He shouldn't be held responsible for someone else's shortcomings. Instead, the other person should be accountable for their own shortcomings.

Blaming Ray for making money on the car is a childish cop out, plain and simple.

2) The Mercedes was listed at $4500 and would have sold for $4500 the following day, so someone needs to explain to me how that is making profit off the Accord. He would have made the same profit off of the Mercedes, had he sold it.

3) Ray sold the Accord because the person offered him $4500 cash sight unseen. Ray would have been stupid to not take the deal.

And I, as well, am ashamed at my stupidity regarding this whole deal. I should have never done the trade in the first place. This Mercedes is only my 4th car ever... and seeing how ray has had over a hundred, he obviously has alot more experience finagling deals than I... and I'm ashamed I let myself get duped into a deal I wouldn't truly be happy with.

You live and learn, I suppose.... I admit my mistake, but also must publicly make note of the deceit that had been impressed upon me to better "protect our members and their interests".

I still stand by the notion that anyone interested in buying from Ray carefully inspect what they are getting into, as there may be more issues than meet the eye.

The Accord was honestly flush with problems and things that needed to be fixed. He had counted on some stuff, but not things like the crossmember and mysterious appetite for belts. He also wanted something that didn't ride like an oxcart with four broken wheels.

What other problems did the car have? It seemed to run and drive perfectly fine while I had it. I LOVED the feel of the suspension. If it was too stiff for Ray, then that lies in personal preference. Comparing it to "an oxcart with four broken wheels" is almost implying there was a problem with the suspension/wheels.... was there?

He needed a dependable daily driver, so he sold the Accord, and bought the Bimmer.

Ben can't exactly be upset about that, after all, he did approach Ray for the trade.

Ray also offered to trade back, and Ben said no. That means the deal is as good as done.

Ray offered to rectify the situation, and Ben declined. Ray can't do much more than that.

I'm sorry I didn't have the money to trade back, because if I knew then what I know now, I would have been interested in trading back.

Now the car is MIA, and has disappeared from the CB7tuner community.
It's a shame

Don't do drugs kids. They ruin your brain.

and the FUCKING AUDACITY OF YOU

HOW DARE you fucking judge me. I've never done anything but marijuana in my entire life... and apparently you don't know a goddamn thing about the plant.

Never killed a person, never ruined a brain.

Study more on the effects of substances before you criticize and put me down for my fucking lifestyle.

You call yourself a "moderator".

[deevergote]

This dies NOW.

Both sides have been discussed publicly, where they have no place. I have allowed it until now.

This is NOT a trading forum. The stance of CB7tuner.com is "caveat emptor" (buyer beware, for those that don't know the phrase.) Trading is allowed, and always will be. However, it is utterly IDIOTIC to trust ANYONE when it comes to your money and property. Protect yourself. You guys traded cars IN PERSON. You BOTH had the opportunity to inspect and drive those cars. Neither of you are stupid. You KNOW that a car should not vibrate at high speeds. You KNOW that belts should not be improperly worn. You KNOW that a VIN tag needs to be in place. You KNOW that ANY damage at all could be an indication of further damage. You KNOW that a lowered/modified vehicle may have taken some abuse. Yet you're both complaining about a bum deal. Did you expect everything to be perfect because you talk on an online forum? I have people here I consider friends, but I wouldn't say I'd trust all of them with my money.


If you want to trade, do it in person or on ebay... or accept the risk. Simple as that. The ONLY attempt to "protect our members and their interests" this site has ever made is to inform the members that they are completely on their own. There is absolutely NOTHING that we can do to protect ANYONE on here. A public stoning is absolutely worthless (both Ben and Ray can attest to this... both are being made out to be the victims and villans here...)


My final word: I DON'T CARE. You both traded one shitty car for another. Neither of you bothered to inspect the cars closely enough to uncover these apparently earth-shattering imperfections. Neither of you had the car delivered sight-unseen (and if you did, that's still carelessness on your part!)
Is it right to assume either party knew of the problems? Probably not. I don't know Ray well, but I honestly would trust Scott with my life (if I ever fly with him, I will!) If Scott trusts him, I have to share that trust somewhat. Ben, I've gotten to know you pretty well over the past few months, and you don't seem untrustworthy to me at all.

So is it possible that Ray didn't know the problems with the car? Sure. Just because Ben had problems getting it inspected doesn't mean that the guy Ray took it to wasn't a little more lax. The physical imperfections? The car was dirty. Was it ever clean enough to see those imperfections? The vibrations... can you prove that they did it in Ray's possession?
Is it possible that Ben didn't know about the problems? Certainly. He's not a mechanic. He barely touched the car. It was a low car on aftermarket rims. Is it possible that a bent crossmember and a bad axle would just be passed off as a rough ride by someone who doesn't know any better? Sure.

Why was none of that noticed upon the initial inspection? Was it hidden from view? Were you guys distracting each other? Did you use your Klingon cloaking devices to hide the problems? I seriously doubt it.


Now, as I said above. I don't care. Your dealings are not my problem. I'm glad to try to help reconcile as a friend, but that's where it stops.

This board is my responsibility. This board is mine. There is no reason to be discussing this on my board. Every thread created, every post dropped in unrelated threads, every mention of this... unnecessary. There are people involved in this discussion that know both of you as well as I do. People involved that probably don't even know your real names. What do they have to do with it? Why should they have any opinion? Why should they choose sides? They shouldn't. This has NOTHING to do with them.

When your problems spill onto MY board, they become MY problem. I have enough problems. I don't want to clean up your messes as well. Right now I have a member that I respect, and a moderator that I look up to flaming each other. I have to decide if I have to ban someone. Why?

Now, as far as I know, Ray sold the CB7 for the amount he wanted for the Benz. He got his $160 back. He is squared away. Ben declined the tradeback offered. Unfortunately, that is the ONLY possible way for Ray to reconcile. Therefore, he had done all he could've been expected to do.

This is done. I don't wish to see this again on my board. You guys all know my IM name, and I'll gladly discuss things with you if you want a mediator. It does not continue publicly. It stops, voluntarily or involuntarily.

[Phempa]

you're absolutely right deev...

I'm sorry for wasting the bandwidth of this site and posting shit that doesn't belong.

This can be deleted if you wish.

I apologize.

[deevergote]

I left it unlocked for a reason.

Bandwidth isn't an issue. It's the effect this crap has on the rest of the forum. I swear, when people do this, it's like kids at recess trying to get the majority of the class behind them in a fight. Be adults and handle things properly. There's no need for a public display.

There's not a single member on here besides you and Ray that should be involved in this. Scott was there, so he has more say than anyone else, but it's still not his problem.
I have NOTHING to do with it... until it hits my board.

[owequitit]

As a parting comment, I do want to clarify my drug statement.

It was poorly placed, and poorly worded.

My intention wasn't to fire it directly at you Ben, but there is realistically no other way to interpret it.

So for that I appologize.

You seem like a cool person, and I have no beef with you, which is why I stayed out of it as long as I did.

I wasn't trying to back Ray up, I was merely clarifying from my point of view, because it was becoming an ongoing issue.

Also, I want this on the record and I would appreciate if you would remember it. I didn't make myself a mod, and I didn't apply for the position, I was asked and accepted.

In doing so, I contracted myself to a higher code of conduct, and that statement should not have been made. I failed to adhere to that code of conduct.

I am human.

I grew up around drug users and have several in my family. There are long term effects to pretty much all of them. That is my experience, so nothing will change my opinion.

I just wanted you to know that there are no personal issues, at least not from my end.

I also would like you to know that I do not abuse my mod powers, and I have NEVER used that as a tool of superiority. I am exactly the same as when I was a regular member.

[deevergote]

And if I ever feel a mod is abusing their powers, I will handle it. That is my duty as admin, and I am the only one to make that determination. I don't mind if people come to me if they have an issue with a mod... in fact, I hope everyone would if that ever happens. However, I want everyone to know that I take my moderator's decisions as my own, and I will defend them if at all possible. If their actions can not be defended in any way, corrective action WILL be taken at my discretion.

[h22sparkle]

hahaha. Damn this is some ish.

[93EXaesthetic]

wow our calendar girls are fighting

[turbomaxx]

that wasnt cool dude let them settle there shit

[93EXaesthetic]

that wasnt cool dude let them settle there shit

ahh.. my bad..i just found it odd... they both appear in the new cb7 calendar

its all love tho

[owequitit]

There won't be anymore said on here.

I have plenty more to say/respond to/cover, but Deev doesn't want it here, so it won't be here.

My AIM name is the same as my screen name, so if anybody involved wants to continue the discussion further, I have no problem with that.

The only part of the original post I don't stand by is the last comment, which I already appologized for.

I am not fighting with Phempa, I have no beef with Phempa, and I have no involvement with Ray and his dealing. I was simply a witness to a situation that was getting out of hand on here.

Enough said.

[HondaB18]

Don't mean to start shit but just curious.

Why would Ray sell a European car and say he wanted to get back into a CB only to sell it and get another European car and not another CB...?

[Dv8]

I think two good people got ahold of two bad cars.. they tried helping each other out and it just didnt work out.. sadly.. Both of you seem like nice people, it would be a shame to let a bunk objects ruin things I know it really must suck, I have made a few deals I wish I didnt, although they were good people and all, the stuff they thought they had was only good for so long.. the worst things happen to the best people I guess. Live and learn.

[owequitit]

Don't mean to start shit but just curious.

Why would Ray sell a European car and say he wanted to get back into a CB only to sell it and get another European car and not another CB...?

It is very hard to find a clean CB7 out here that is worth having.

He found the BMW and needed a car to drive, it was in very good shape so he got it.

Plus, I think he is kind of in the same position Ben was. He is tired of the attention, and the kids.