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**Masamune** · 06-08-2005, 11:54 PM

This is going to be hard for me to respond to. Hmmmm... how to put this.

First and foremost; I agree that firemen/cops/teachers etc. get little to no respect nowadays or at least not as much. Come to think of it, I think my old bus driver for track got more respect! Teacher appreciation week just doesn't cut it for them. Firemen. Where to start? Talk about men who deserve a little slack every once-and-a-while! Wish I could elaborate more on the firemen thing, but it's 11:30 and I can't. Cops. Tough to really say because of the select few that ruin their whole image. I'm talkin the guys who stop every modified car or "suspicious" activity. But this isn't a bash session! Cops are guys who daily put their lives on the line and hardly anyone ever thanks them, much less offer disability pay.

As for those military dudes you were talkin about, do you know what branch they were from? Cause on the off chance they were from the Air Force, you shouldn't feel terribly bad. Air Force personnel almost never see combat time or get anywhere close to the front lines. I think maybe 21 AF people have died thus far as a result of the war in Iraq/Asscrackistan. As for trying to recruit you, you DEFINITELY shouldn't feel bad. Everyone and their dog knows that that's a personal choice at the best and being pressured into it results in more pain for both parties than it is worth.

Now to the part I'm gonna have to carefully word.

I feel that the amount of respect the military and it's soldiers/workers/whatever recieve is well justified. Compensation is part of the militaries way of helping you decide if you want to join the armed forces. And no disrespect meant at all, but I don't think you do any of these jobs (cops, firemen, teacher or soldier) for the respect. You do it because it's what you feel is right. Policemen and firemen may not recieve compensation, and you're right in that it doesn't seem fair, but atleast these fine people have the opportunity to come home to their families each and every night and enjoy with them what they work for. The best a soldier over-seas can get is a video e-mail. And everyone knows that that just doesn't do justice to the feeling you get when you see your family for the first time in 13 months.

Slightly off topic here, but I'm tired of people saying that life in the military is easy, especially for those who are related/married to a servicemen. You people are full of shit, pardon the language. How the hell would you know? You whining, pansy-ass people need to experience something before you judge. The military is easy? Fine. Off to boot camp with you, you 300 pound no selling waste of space! Military is easy AFTER boot camp? Okay. We'll give you the easiest assignment, and send you on a remote for 12 months to f***in KOREA! (no disrespect to koreans or anything, but our bases over there suck from what I hear). That's right! No family, no friends, just you, a tv and a boss who you WILL think is a dick yelling at you to get those buildings cleaned and inspected before sundown. I could go on and on, but the brunt of my anger is extinguished.

I may have gotten off topic, but then again I may not have. Either way, I've expressed my opinion and I feel a bit better. Thank you, farewell, and amen.

**williamsvt** · 06-09-2005, 06:18 AM

My father is a teacher, and he never reserves the praise that he deserves. He was a Bennington College grad and he has his graduates at Yale University. He is a very intelligent man, who has taught many people the different ways of science and the environment. I think that firemen and policemen deserve the same praise. THey put themselves in harms way everyday just to protect us and to protect our rights and they deserve a pat on the back and or a compliment everyday.

However, i know that some of the divisions of the armed forces are pretty insignificant and do not fight in battle as much as others. However, i have had close friends go into the army and they have almost died in combat. Its a very scary thing, when you know that your friend was a foot away from getting shot and nearly killed. With that being said, i have a lot of respect for some of the men and women that search in the military, but no necessarily hold it for every single military individual.

Good thread Ricky.

**ChIoVnIdCa** · 06-09-2005, 07:15 AM

teachers dont get paid to bad. They only work less then 200 days a year

**i'm the girl** · 06-09-2005, 11:36 AM

you know what -- ive spent 45 minutes trying to draft out a good solid answer, but im truly upset and at a loss of clear thought

if you wanted to say "they dont get enough recognition" thats what you shouldve said, instead of then proceeding to rant on about how much our guys are worth it, or if their reasons for joining are justified

i agree they dont get enough recognition, teachers who are underpaid, firemen who are volunteers... but a volunteer doesnt expect that, they do it for the love.

i am a family liason for my husband's command - 2 other women and i have to worry about the concerns of 600 + families while our guys are away , as well as keeping our own homes together -- and i don't get paid for it. and i dont care that i don't get paid because its something i WANT to do.

at least as a volunteer, i could quit if i wanted to... but my husband can't leave without consequence just because things get tough. and even if he wasn't driving an MTVR in a security convoy id still worry when he was away. i don't see him for 6 or 10 or 12 months at a time no matter where he goes... and no one gives me recognition. my daughter isn't going to know who he is nor is he going to see her first steps or first words by the time he comes home next spring - but no one's doing anything for me. and im in this by choice

i agree its messed up that volunteers dont necessarily get what they deserve, but they're doing it from the heart, not because they have to -- many of them don't even want the recognition, they just enjoy helping people.

whether or not they have good personalities or are mature enough to conduct themselves in public (im thinking of you deev, i have the same problems at work sometimes!) what you need to understand is that a lot is given up to join the military. the navy has the highest divorce rate - fathers and mothers miss out on their children growing up - you cannot dig your roots too deep for fear of relocation - you sign yourself away as the government's bitch, slave to the upper ranks - there is no overtime, even when you work eight 15-hour days in a row

that's enough out of me for now. fizz i see your point, but this one is not as sharp and well versed as most of them -- and im a little ratlled

later kids.

**i'm the girl** · 06-10-2005, 11:05 AM

hmmm i think i came off a little super-republican-pro-military-pro-sandbox the first time and i apologize .... because im not

i am not as biased as you think, and i have certain opinions that i would love to shout out right here, but unfortunately i have to guard my words because there are people on these forums who know who i am.... and no matter what anyone says, word gets around

^^do you know how much i HATE to have to say that? Yes I support my husband, and yes i will defend the FACTS about what its like in my shoes and, from what i see everyday, in their shoes... ...i have never been one to bite my lip but now i have to; and thats my bed that i made, so im gonna lie in it.

im just saying its not as easy to write off as you may say, no matter who you have known. and he is a great parent an an awesome mind first and foremost, on top of being one of the better, harder working sailors out there - but eh, its not like me to rag on about how great somebody is. he joined to get out of his podunk louisiana hometown... because, like you said, and i NEVER disagreed, for him it was the only way.

and like i said before, i do completely agree that there are people out there who deserve as much, if not more credit -- but this country, unfortunately, doesn't make much sense like that -- and frankly i hate it... especiallly when it comes to teachers - at least as a fireman you KNOW you are putting your life on the line, but teachers are only messengers and they get caught in the crossfire every day ... i could post a whole rant about school funding, etc. and how i think its messed up, but not now

im in this because i wouldn't trade him for anything. and we're staying in so that we can get the fuck out of this country and raise our daughter somewhere better

trust me, i don't just support soldiers because they are soldiers... in any rate i support ayone who does his or job right and full-heartedly helps to contribute to society rather than whining and making excuses about maybes and what ifs --

...i was just clearing up what i saw were some inconsistencies from how it is where i sit, it was not a statement of my opinion... because i personally agree with you in more ways than i think i made clear the first time - and i guess in a way i was bitching too, because as a spouse, i get nothing -- its not like the rest of the world is out there honoring us for all the shit we have to do - no i haven't been stabbed or trapped in a burning building, but its like you said, good parents are seriously hard to come by these days - and this is the hardest job i ever got. sometimes i think its not worth fighting for recognition, that i made this choice, but at the same time i think we and any other "unsung" or "everyday" hero deserve it for what most of us do

...and as much as i love him i sometimes wonder if this is worth it, if i should tell him to call it a day and move on as a civilian or say goodbye

**flacopower** · 06-10-2005, 11:16 AM

you wanna talk about sacrifices??? military are uprooted and forced to move every 2-5 years (depending on the branch) what does that do to the families? i have never heard of cops being "deployed" for months at a time. my dad was on a boat on his way to the persian gulf when my brother was born and he was on a boat in the chesapeke bay when i was born... but he isn't sacrificing anything. and as far as the volunteer firefighters, they know what they are getting themselves into too. not to diminish from their courage.

**owequitit** · 06-10-2005, 01:27 PM

So what? We are all biased, yet you sit here and quote "facts", but you are really quoting the facts that you want to build your side of the story. You are just as biased as everyone else on this board. Get off of your high horse and quit preaching from your soapbox. There is no such thing as a completely neutral unbiased human being.

Volunteers that risk their life are volunteers that risk there life. I have equal respect and gratitude for all of them. Anyone that is willing to die so that I may live, gets my gratitude and my respect. The fact that circumstances have dictated that different volunteers make different amounts of money is just an after effect of scarcity. Of course you are such a genious that you probably already knew that was the driving force that dictates the behavior of all living organisms in all situations because there is an unlimited amount of need and a limited amount of resources.

If you think for one second that any volunteer in a situation like that does it for the money, you aren't nearly as shrewd as you believe yourself to be. I have never met a military person, especially in circumstances like these that risks their life for the money. No amount of money is worth having your body parts (or life) very painfully removed. Any reasonable human being understands that.

Case in point, I am currently looking for a home in the military. The Navy wants to give me $152,000 to help towards paying off my student loans if I agree to sit in the reactor compartment of a ship pushing buttons for the next six years. I would rather fly an airplane. I won't get any signing bonus at all, I would only make a couple thousand more a year, and I am WAY more likely to get shot at because that is what the frontline enemy does. Still, I would rather do that for two reasons:

1) I love to fly airplanes

2) It is much more intrinsically rewarding to me to know that I am helping the guy on the ground that is keeping the enemy from meeting their objectives.

That isn't to say the reactor operator isn't doing an important job, but clearly my motivation isn't money. And neither is many other people's if you talk to them.

My third reason is strictly personal. This mess isn't going away any time soon. We are too far into it. Even if we just wash our hands and back out, it still isn't going to disappear like many people think it will. I could write a book on all of the effects of Vietnam that are still going on today. These wrinkles in history don't just disappear. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And we can't take away the actions of history. But enough of that. Back to my reason. If we don't take care of it now, once and for all, whatever the "correct" solution ends up being, then we will have to send our kids and possibly our grandkids to finish it. I would rather risk my safety and well being now, than risk theirs later.

Why do you suppose the volunteer rate goes down so much during times of conflict? The money isn't worth the risk. Especially when it involves spending a year or more away from everything and everyone that you care about.

I agree, volunteer firefighters aren't paid enough (or at all for that matter), and many other volunteers aren't compensated fairly either. But you know what? Having talked to many of them in many different circumstances, they very seldom even mention the money. Money isn't the driving force of the universe and many people understand that.

Besides, if they are truly in it for the right reasons, then they don't need someone to toot their horn for them, because the internal satisfaction is there.

It's unfortunate that you just don't seem to understand that based on your history of posting here on CB7.

Call me an idiot and narrow minded if you wish, but it will just prove my point further.

**i'm the girl** · 06-10-2005, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by owequitit

Why do you suppose the volunteer rate goes down so much during times of conflict? The money isn't worth the risk. Especially when it involves spending a year or more away from everything and everyone that you care about.

I agree, volunteer firefighters aren't paid enough (or at all for that matter), and many other volunteers aren't compensated fairly either. But you know what? Having talked to many of them in many different circumstances, they very seldom even mention the money. Money isn't the driving force of the universe and many people understand that.

Besides, if they are truly in it for the right reasons, then they don't need someone to toot their horn for them, because the internal satisfaction is there.

its funny you say that b/c the Navy gives a "separation pay" when your servicemember is on det and in cases where the member is in a dangerous area, like iraq, he also gets "combat pay" -- but seriously, an extra $600 a month may as well be nothing - and its funny b/c he tells me he just doubled his life insurance policy just in case... ...but even then i don't sleep -

- he is doing the job he has now BECAUSE HE VOLUNTEERED TO DO IT - my husband is a fucking CS - that's a culinary specialist - he could make 6 figures at a five star restaurant if he wanted, but no, he stays in and this time around asked to be put on cert team so he could drive an mtvr leading a security convoy and help the real cause to help make sure our guys are coming home safe and sound so don't tell me there are people who didn't get in this because they wanted to do it - everyone in his group with him is there because they asked to be

...and $20 a day for every day he's gone is my thanks...

but its like i said in the first place, yeah volunteers should get more recognition, but the ones who are really doing it for the want of it, don't need it ... its like Karma... knowing what you have done is good, that's what matters; how others choose to take it is their own priority

**owequitit** · 06-10-2005, 06:13 PM

Well said. It isn't about the money. Some people just don't understand the reward of a selfless act I guess.

**bracersi** · 06-10-2005, 07:03 PM

Wow this is stupid. Neither of these 2 professions can be compared on a similar level. To try and compare them is pointless. With volunteer work you can quit whenver you want, military is a different story. With volunteer work you have a choice to follow orders, in the military you don't. Military gets benefits and nice ones at that, volunteers don't. They all have there pro's and con's. Neither is better then the other, or even more hard working or sacraficing then the other. One major point that I beg to differ with you though is the job related incidents of death. ww2, veitnam, desert storm, operation iraqi freedom, and all the other millions of missions in between, accidental deaths to to malfunctions, the list goes on.

I have seen multiple people sign up for the military in the time of war so they can go fight for are country even when they didn't need the money. Though your intentions are good to glorify the people who protect are homeland, your argument of generalizing the military is offensive. You have no clue what kind of shit people go through in the military.

**phatdoughnut** · 06-10-2005, 07:08 PM

Its the american way, no and if or buts about it.

people know exactly what they sign up for so that is that.

**owequitit** · 06-10-2005, 07:16 PM

I agree about teachers influential position in the world. That has never been in doubt. I know a lot of teachers that teach so they can have summers off. I have also had teachers that pushed me and influenced me in ways I could never imagine.

But to say that no one in Iraq has helped you is missing the point of what I was saying. I am speaking in a big picture sense. And yes people who have died in war have helped you tremendously. Without them, there wouldn't be a free America. Without them there wouldn't be a United States. Without them, we wouldn't be able to have this conversation. Most of the people who have fought in the wars that have shaped our history and freedom weren't fighting for money. They were fighting for their future and for our future. WWII vets signed up in droves because they understood that if they didn't, we would not exist as we do today. I used Iraq as a metaphor for the big picture. It is the same reason that I would go there today to fight for our freedom. The main party that we are trying to fight against has made a very clear statement to the world. They will not rest until we are DESTROYED. I don't know how much clearer that message can get. If that isn't fighting for our survival I don't know what is. Germany only aimed to control Europe (at least publicly) and Japan only aimed to control the Pacific. Would they have stopped there? History says no and history ALWAYS repeats itself. Maybe not in the same way, but the basics are there if you look closely enough. Iraq was not directly involved, and I am not going to go into the politics of that here. But the Islamic extremeists (who are eerily similar to the Christian extremists) have made it pefectly clear that they "will bring the infadels to their knees." So we sit and do nothing because war is evil and we don't want to hurt anybody. Then what? Next thing you know, you mom and grandma are sitting in the cafe having coffee and BOOM a suicide bomber lights himself up. Will war stop that? Nope, but at least we are minimizing the risk by hunting them and their network down on foreign soil. People say that it is mean and inhumane to do that. They are the ones that made the statement it is us or them. I choose them.

I will finish this later. I have to go, they are kicking me out of work

**bracersi** · 06-10-2005, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by owequitit

I agree about teachers influential position in the world. That has never been in doubt. I know a lot of teachers that teach so they can have summers off. I have also had teachers that pushed me and influenced me in ways I could never imagine.

But to say that no one in Iraq has helped you is missing the point of what I was saying. I am speaking in a big picture sense. And yes people who have died in war have helped you tremendously. Without them, there wouldn't be a free America. Without them there wouldn't be a United States. Without them, we wouldn't be able to have this conversation. Most of the people who have fought in the wars that have shaped our history and freedom weren't fighting for money. They were fighting for their future and for our future. WWII vets signed up in droves because they understood that if they didn't, we would not exist as we do today. I used Iraq as a metaphor for the big picture. It is the same reason that I would go there today to fight for our freedom. The main party that we are trying to fight against has made a very clear statement to the world. They will not rest until we are DESTROYED. I don't know how much clearer that message can get. If that isn't fighting for our survival I don't know what is. Germany only aimed to control Europe (at least publicly) and Japan only aimed to control the Pacific. Would they have stopped there? History says no and history ALWAYS repeats itself. Maybe not in the same way, but the basics are there if you look closely enough. Iraq was not directly involved, and I am not going to go into the politics of that here. But the Islamic extremeists (who are eerily similar to the Christian extremists) have made it pefectly clear that they "will bring the infadels to their knees." So we sit and do nothing because war is evil and we don't want to hurt anybody. Then what? Next thing you know, you mom and grandma are sitting in the cafe having coffee and BOOM a suicide bomber lights himself up. Will war stop that? Nope, but at least we are minimizing the risk by hunting them and their network down on foreign soil. People say that it is mean and inhumane to do that. They are the ones that made the statement it is us or them. I choose them.

I will finish this later. I have to go, they are kicking me out of work

You make a very good point. At the same token the war that we are fighting with these terrorists dates back to the cold war period. They didn't one day just wake up and say "oh we hate america". After we helped aid the taliban in fighting russia from spreading communism we then turned our backs on them. Basically we instigated the fight. We basically used afghanistan like a dirty whore and then ditched them. They are pissed at us for it. In a sense we are fighting a mutated version of the cold war that we once helped start a long time ago. Terrorists are simply the bastard children of the cold war and they want to get even with all the big dog countries for using them.

**owequitit** · 06-13-2005, 01:39 PM

Believe it or not, I do understand the history of the Taliban and the resistance against Russia. I know the history of how we got to where we are today. I am going to stay away from the politics of it, but I will say this. It was poor foreign policy. End of discussion. However, the version of truth that you are quoting is somewhat false. We agreed to supply the resistance with guns, weapons and training, (which we did). We may have at some point backed out on them, but that goes back to the poor foreign policy thing.

The thing that most people are neglecting is the political reality over there. Osama Bin Laden is a Megalomaniac, just like Napolean, Hitler and Sodam Insane. He will do whatever he has to in order to keep the power, or push his agenda. If you look closely you will see that at first it was "oh the evil Russians are trying to oppress us, and take our land, but the US will help us and save us." As soon as Russia was no longer a factor, suddenly it was "oh the evil capitalists backed out and left us high and dry." "They are going to corrupt the world and make us all money hungry pigs." Interesting shift don't you think? It sounds eerily familiar to the excuses Hitler used during WWII to justify exterminating millions of Jews and isolating Poles, Italians, Czechs and whatever else he could get his hands on. People in those positions of power have to use fear to maintain control and if you look at from a psychological standpoint, that is all Al Quiada, The Taliban, Osama Bin Laden (fill in any name you want) is doing. Like I said, history repeats itself. Not exactly the same way, but in the details.

That isn't to say we haven't done anything wrong, our politics are just as dirty as everyone elses, but we aren't the only ones who have tresspassed either. That is just a bunch of crap that people with their own agendas want you to buy into because it furthers their goal and their power.

Unfortunately, now we are clearly to the point where a peaceful and amicable solution is no longer a possibility. Now we are stuck with the realities of war, murder and people dying. Would you rather their people die in their land, or would you prefer to have to worry about your loved ones getting blown up in Wal-Mart?

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