Break the ban on importing cars

[CyborgGT]

I didn't even look at the petition, I figured it was some kid upset about not being allowed to import the GT-R he can't afford anyway. I'm only arguing the general principle of importing a single personal vehicle, and this country's retarded logic behind disallowing it.

What exactly is dangerous about driving on the other side? I can only assume your driver was useless because it only takes a little bit of common sense and paying attention to orient yourself to the change. Mail men do it on the daily, and a person that cares enough to go through the hassle of importing is going to mind their car accordingly.

Love the "they have their reasons, don't question it" mentality, by the way. Real progressive.

[Night Wolf]

get an education, get into the governments DOT, an then youll actually have a chance to change stuff like this. lol

[The G-Man]

I didn't even look at the petition, I figured it was some kid upset about not being allowed to import the GT-R he can't afford anyway. I'm only arguing the general principle of importing a single personal vehicle, and this country's retarded logic behind disallowing it.

What exactly is dangerous about driving on the other side? I can only assume your driver was useless because it only takes a little bit of common sense and paying attention to orient yourself to the change. Mail men do it on the daily, and a person that cares enough to go through the hassle of importing is going to mind their car accordingly.

Love the "they have their reasons, don't question it" mentality, by the way. Real progressive.

Eh not really that mentality. The cold hard truth is that America is stubborn. We keep a lot of things the rest of the world does not use anymore i.e. metric system simply because it would cost to much to implement. Therefore, since we as a country have refused to adapt to that system, or adapt to ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) standards for flying like much of the rest of the world, why in the hell does anyone think that we will adopt the vehicle manufacturing safety standards of the rest of the world?

The wikipedia page on UN vehicle regulations has a lot of good info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...le_Regulations

Because the UN regulations and the regulations used in the USA and Canada are different, auto companies make two types of cars, those for North America and those for the rest of the world (LHD, and RHD).

I don't see this changing any time soon because North America is large enough of a market that the large auto-makers have no problem making cars under two different standards, and they can control which models are sold and where. The smaller foreign auto makers are kept out of the USDM this way, and companies such as BMW and Mercedes can preserve brand prestige in this market by only sending the higher trim levels and such of their cars.


Not to mention the amount of $$$$ that the auto-makers, both foreign and domestic, pour into lobbyists every year to prevent grey-market importing for business reasons.

The wikipedia article on grey-market imports provides a lot of information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_import_vehicle


If you really want to bring a foreign vehicle not intended for original sale in the USA, then fight this battle, just know what you're up against before heading into it.

[cb9love]

I just love the lay down and take it mentality around here.

[Night Wolf]

its just the way the system works. basically, you need money or power to change that law.

[deevergote]

"lay down and take it mentality"? No. Not at all. The majority of those arguing against this petition aren't saying that at all. In fact, most of the people in this discussion could probably list a number of non-importable cars that they'd love to get their hands on.

However, as Gary put it... the premise of the petition is "because I want it." It suggests that the law should be changed because the signers of the petition want it to be changed. There are MANY rules explaining why the 25 year rule is in effect. Changing them would be quite expensive and rather complex. Without a good argument against the rules, they are NOT going to be changed.
cb9love, you definitely missed the point of my example of a child whining about a video game console his parents can't afford. I'll try to explain it a bit more clearly. In that example, the child doesn't understand the complex financial situation of his parents. He sees a thing, and he wants it. He gets upset because he can't have it, and doesn't care to know or understand WHY he can't have it. He knows that daddy and mommy go to work every day to earn money. He knows they have to pay money for some things, such as food, and "bills". But he doesn't comprehend that his parents are bringing in, say, $2000/mo, and spending $1900/mo on necessities... so the $400 video game console is not exactly an expense that the family can effectively incur with only $100 per month to spare. Especially since the cost doesn't stop at $400. Sales tax adds about 8.5% in Anytown, USA... so that's another $37. Then Junior wants games for his new machine. Those suckers are $65 a pop... and the kid will beat them or get bored with them every other week. Then, of course, there's the $65 yearly gamer subscription charge... because Junior can't pwn noobs with his homies without that!
The point of that example is that if you're going to make demands of those in charge without understanding the reasons for the rules you want changed, and the effects of the change you're demanding... you sound like a spoiled child. "Because I want it" is not the way a petition to the US government works.
If this petition was one that included some rather convincing evidence that non-US cars made in more recent times are capable of meeting US emissions and safety standards, then I might have a bit of respect for it. Otherwise, "because I want it" doesn't fly.

As for RHD... there are PLENTY of LHD cars that aren't available in the US that are desirable. There are a bunch of Italian and French cars that would be right at home on US roads.
Granted, the majority of people that want to import stuff are fans of Japanese cars, which are RHD. I do agree that RHD does offer some degree of danger on US roads. If you're driving a RHD car and you wish to overtake the slow driver in front of you, half of your car would be in the opposing lane before you can see enough to verify that it is safe to pass. Meaning if it's not safe to pass, you'd have gotten into an accident before you were even capable of seeing the oncoming car! Headlights are also aimed differently on RHD cars, directing the light to the left. When used on the intended side of the road, they direct more light off the road. When used on the wrong side, they direct light directly at oncoming traffic, which can be a hazard. A third hazard is the fact that not every driver is going to adapt to RHD driving equally. Some 19 year old kid that's been saving his pennies since his bar mitzvah to import a RHD car may not be comfortable in such a car, or sensible enough to be extra careful while driving it. Youth and lack of experience are enough of a danger... adding yet another potentially significant factor to the mix may not be a good idea!


The funny thing is that I actually WANT this to happen. I actually WANT to import a number of cars that are currently ineligible for importation. I do not have a "lay down and take it mentality." I just understand that some things require a HUGE investment of time, money, knowledge, and effort to change... and even then, change is unlikely. Overcoming the 25 year rule is one of those things. Smarter people than us have tried and failed, using far more convincing arguments than "because I want it."

[deevergote]

its just the way the system works. basically, you need money or power to change that law.

Money and power help... but a convincing argument backed by irrefutable evidence will get you just as far, if not further... provided you have the ability to make your argument heard.

[The G-Man]

I just love the lay down and take it mentality around here.

I love the fact that you haven't offered up any convincing argument that is is actually feasible.

[cb9love]

I't not my fight,
I was simply bringing you the news that if you do want this there are ways to get it.
I said just because I don't want it is a sad excuse to not to try to support my fellow tuners.
I also said if this is something you care about then you should write a better argument then what I would write. I said don't just piss moan at, least make some effort . A bad idea is still a idea and it is always better than no idea and is infinitely better than belittling others ideas because your to sad to make an effort.
If this is something you want to do, and you think this effort is trash instead of whining about how bad it is, propose a better idea and i will gladly support you in your effort.
If you need ideas I will contribute.
If you write better than me than please write the proposal. Please don't just cry about how hard it is or how bad this is.
Suggest how to make it better instead.

quityourbitchinanddosomethinganything

[cb9love]

"lay down and take it mentality"? No. Not at all. The majority of those arguing against this petition aren't saying that at all. In fact, most of the people in this discussion could probably list a number of non-importable cars that they'd love to get their hands on.

However, as Gary put it... the premise of the petition is "because I want it." It suggests that the law should be changed because the signers of the petition want it to be changed. There are MANY rules explaining why the 25 year rule is in effect. Changing them would be quite expensive and rather complex. Without a good argument against the rules, they are NOT going to be changed.
cb9love, you definitely missed the point of my example of a child whining about a video game console his parents can't afford. I'll try to explain it a bit more clearly. In that example, the child doesn't understand the complex financial situation of his parents. He sees a thing, and he wants it. He gets upset because he can't have it, and doesn't care to know or understand WHY he can't have it. He knows that daddy and mommy go to work every day to earn money. He knows they have to pay money for some things, such as food, and "bills". But he doesn't comprehend that his parents are bringing in, say, $2000/mo, and spending $1900/mo on necessities... so the $400 video game console is not exactly an expense that the family can effectively incur with only $100 per month to spare. Especially since the cost doesn't stop at $400. Sales tax adds about 8.5% in Anytown, USA... so that's another $37. Then Junior wants games for his new machine. Those suckers are $65 a pop... and the kid will beat them or get bored with them every other week. Then, of course, there's the $65 yearly gamer subscription charge... because Junior can't pwn noobs with his homies without that!
The point of that example is that if you're going to make demands of those in charge without understanding the reasons for the rules you want changed, and the effects of the change you're demanding... you sound like a spoiled child. "Because I want it" is not the way a petition to the US government works.
If this petition was one that included some rather convincing evidence that non-US cars made in more recent times are capable of meeting US emissions and safety standards, then I might have a bit of respect for it. Otherwise, "because I want it" doesn't fly.

As for RHD... there are PLENTY of LHD cars that aren't available in the US that are desirable. There are a bunch of Italian and French cars that would be right at home on US roads.
Granted, the majority of people that want to import stuff are fans of Japanese cars, which are RHD. I do agree that RHD does offer some degree of danger on US roads. If you're driving a RHD car and you wish to overtake the slow driver in front of you, half of your car would be in the opposing lane before you can see enough to verify that it is safe to pass. Meaning if it's not safe to pass, you'd have gotten into an accident before you were even capable of seeing the oncoming car! Headlights are also aimed differently on RHD cars, directing the light to the left. When used on the intended side of the road, they direct more light off the road. When used on the wrong side, they direct light directly at oncoming traffic, which can be a hazard. A third hazard is the fact that not every driver is going to adapt to RHD driving equally. Some 19 year old kid that's been saving his pennies since his bar mitzvah to import a RHD car may not be comfortable in such a car, or sensible enough to be extra careful while driving it. Youth and lack of experience are enough of a danger... adding yet another potentially significant factor to the mix may not be a good idea!


The funny thing is that I actually WANT this to happen. I actually WANT to import a number of cars that are currently ineligible for importation. I do not have a "lay down and take it mentality." I just understand that some things require a HUGE investment of time, money, knowledge, and effort to change... and even then, change is unlikely. Overcoming the 25 year rule is one of those things. Smarter people than us have tried and failed, using far more convincing arguments than "because I want it."

Your right deevergote, i do not understand the spoiled child argument.
That sounds like bad parenting from the beginning, Either the parents need to beat some sense into that child our someone needs to beat that child's parents for raising a child without manners or respect.
Maybe the writer of the petition needs too learn to argue his wants better.(your pretty good at arguing deevergote, I would like too see you argue for something, instead of against something) From what I see everything is based on I want, some people my be able to rationalize their wants better but they are still just "I want it" . The automakers want less competition, that's a "Iwant". I need to know what arguments they are using to justify their "Iwant" over other peoples Iwant". Country's like Germany, Italy, England, Japan have emission and safety standards. I'm sure they have a rating system or grading system for their standards. It would only take simple cross comparisons of our standards vs. their standards to see where their standards are similar enough to our standards with out a whole new round of testing, otherwise its just the federal government saying "Iwant" it to be difficult for no other reason than "Iwant". If a minimum standard is established then any car that meets the minimum standard could be imported without the need for each individual car being tested. Otherwise it's just "Iwant" it hard so no one else can do it. As selfish as it sounds everything we have is because someone said "Iwant" and enough other people said "I want that too".
One more time just to be clear, there are no modern cars that I want to import. I would like to see other have this relatively small "Iwant". There is enough selfishness in laws already for me to believe "Iwant" is a plenty good enough reason to try and get it. If what you want doesn't impede my pursuit of happiness and freedom than I will at least encourage you to pursue it and not just say this is dumb. If i think what you want is kinda neat then i will at least try to speak up for you, not say that's dumb. If I can think of a better way for you to voice your Opinion then i will give you my advice on the matter not just say that's dumb.
Too imply that American standards are to high, by saying that it would cost to much to have those cars tested, while ignoring the fact that those other countries have standards is pretty arrogant and a little bit insulting to our fellow countries.
They have testing and rating systems, simple cross comparison would verify what grade they need too pass our standards. (too code in this country is just a C grade paper anyway)

The 19yr old driver argument is just more of making others responsible for others irresponsibility. "Please do not punish me because your child is a idiot" is what i am trying to say there. "please do not punish me because your child is a brat" would be another way to put it.
I would like to see more personal responsibility and less society responsibility.
Please do not throw out the whole barrel of apples because one is spoiled. At least turn the apples into hard cider.(not sure what i am saying there but it sounded good)
If it's good for the goose than it's good for the gander, If car makers "IWANT" is relevant then so is another persons "Iwant".
EVERYTHING IS ABOUT "IWANT" ,( I being every person on the planet) some people are just more blunt and honest about it and less likely or able to sugar coat or bullshit their "Iwant", If your good at sugar coating then you should write the petition, I am to blunt for that.

NOT to anyone in particular, just to everyone in general
The truth is you would never see my dick, If you don't show me your asshole or If you don't want me shoving my dick in your asshole don't show it to me.

[oni_cb7]

Someone is not understanding the fact that this has been tried countless times before in a more professional and eloquent manner. You can keep trying, but if your effort isn't as good as those before you, then why even make the effort? If someone already tried to do the same thing, but put in way more work; why do you think this would work?

Some people may be way too young to remember, but there have been countless petitions for this same cause.

[The G-Man]

I't not my fight,
I was simply bringing you the news that if you do want this there are ways to get it.
I said just because I don't want it is a sad excuse to not to try to support my fellow tuners.
I also said if this is something you care about then you should write a better argument then what I would write. I said don't just piss moan at, least make some effort . A bad idea is still a idea and it is always better than no idea and is infinitely better than belittling others ideas because your to sad to make an effort.
If this is something you want to do, and you think this effort is trash instead of whining about how bad it is, propose a better idea and i will gladly support you in your effort.
If you need ideas I will contribute.
If you write better than me than please write the proposal. Please don't just cry about how hard it is or how bad this is.
Suggest how to make it better instead.

quityourbitchinanddosomethinganything

Yeah, I don't want to import a foreign car. I understand why it is not possible today, and I don't care enough to change the law. It isn't a bad thing that we have our laws/cars and they have their laws/cars. It makes traveling a unique experience because you can see different things.

Let's face it, we live in a heavily globalized world. These days you can get just about any product from anywhere in a few days, but what that also does is take away the motivation to travel and see and experience different things around the world. Plus you can do cool shit like bring back beer from Germany like I did a couple weeks ago and enjoy and share it with friends in the USA.

The only thing I did was enlighten you on why this petition will not work. You did zero research and somehow tell me that I need to support fellow tuners. Hell no I don't need to blindly support fellow tuners if I don't want to. We have plenty of modifications/work arounds for importing things already. I don't want to walk out my door and see several R33s driving down the street.

Like really, would being able to import any vehicle you want really make things better for all of us? I don't think so. Honestly I'm just ranting now and I have way bigger fish to fry. To be frank, I'm not the one crying. Next time do your homework and come up with a better argument. But for now I am done arguing over the internet. If you want to have coffee we can spitball some stuff. I live in Philadelphia, PA. The invitation is open. If you don't want to travel, send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number and we can talk.

[deevergote]

The funny thing is that I AM arguing FOR something. I am arguing FOR an effective argument that might actually accomplish something.
If a guy is trying to fly, I'd rather be "negative" and hand the guy a book on aerodynamics, rather than simply being supportive and encouraging him to keep flapping his arms as hard as he can.

Do I want to make the argument regarding importation myself? No. Because I understand why the current rules are in place, and how incredibly difficult and potentially problematic it would be to change them. The people that actually have the power to change the rules understand those reasons in far more detail than I do, too. I don't believe that there IS an argument that will reduce the 25 year rule.

"I want" doesn't make an unreasonable demand more reasonable, no matter how many people chime in. The law regarding importation is not some arbitrary piece of legislation that some politician penned in his spare time. It's not something that is going to be changed by a million "I wants". It is something that is going to be changed (IF it can be changed) by an intelligent, educated proposal. Right now, "I want" isn't even enough to inspire a dialogue between the petitioners and the lawmakers. You're not supporting anyone by signing such a thing. The only thing you're supporting is laziness and ignorance. You're supporting the demands of a spoiled child that thinks the world should change according to his desires... and I have little doubt that the lawmakers that read such a petition will think the same thing. Petitions like that have probably painted quite a lovely picture of the "tuner" crowd over the years. I bet that petition gets trashed before the recipient even reads the entire title.

If someone wants to change the law, they need to roll up their sleeves and read a LOT of very, very boring paperwork. They need to understand each and every element that goes into making these cars illegal. They need to come up with feasible arguments or alternatives for each and every element addressed in the current laws. They then need to present those arguments or alternatives in a coherent fashion to the lawmakers. Then, and only then, will they even stand a chance of getting some sort of response from the lawmakers... and most likely, that response will shoot down most (if not all) of their proposals. Then they get to take the new information as provided in the lawmakers' response, and rework their proposal. Rinse and repeat.

[cb7 calling]

It's very elementary. It would undermine crash testing, epa figures all of it. If you you could import any foreign car automakers would never intend to release a vehicle for United States consumption again. It would be cheaper to sell them in a country with no regulations and ship them to us as needed.
Sticker reads
EPA est fuel economy: none of your business
Crash rating: none of your business.
What would you have Bill Gates do beyond the miracle he has already accomplished?.....greedy

[cb9love]

The funny thing is that I AM arguing FOR something. I am arguing FOR an effective argument that might actually accomplish something.
If a guy is trying to fly, I'd rather be "negative" and hand the guy a book on aerodynamics, rather than simply being supportive and encouraging him to keep flapping his arms as hard as he can.

Do I want to make the argument regarding importation myself? No. Because I understand why the current rules are in place, and how incredibly difficult and potentially problematic it would be to change them. The people that actually have the power to change the rules understand those reasons in far more detail than I do, too. I don't believe that there IS an argument that will reduce the 25 year rule.

"I want" doesn't make an unreasonable demand more reasonable, no matter how many people chime in. The law regarding importation is not some arbitrary piece of legislation that some politician penned in his spare time. It's not something that is going to be changed by a million "I wants". It is something that is going to be changed (IF it can be changed) by an intelligent, educated proposal. Right now, "I want" isn't even enough to inspire a dialogue between the petitioners and the lawmakers. You're not supporting anyone by signing such a thing. The only thing you're supporting is laziness and ignorance. You're supporting the demands of a spoiled child that thinks the world should change according to his desires... and I have little doubt that the lawmakers that read such a petition will think the same thing. Petitions like that have probably painted quite a lovely picture of the "tuner" crowd over the years. I bet that petition gets trashed before the recipient even reads the entire title.

If someone wants to change the law, they need to roll up their sleeves and read a LOT of very, very boring paperwork. They need to understand each and every element that goes into making these cars illegal. They need to come up with feasible arguments or alternatives for each and every element addressed in the current laws. They then need to present those arguments or alternatives in a coherent fashion to the lawmakers. Then, and only then, will they even stand a chance of getting some sort of response from the lawmakers... and most likely, that response will shoot down most (if not all) of their proposals. Then they get to take the new information as provided in the lawmakers' response, and rework their proposal. Rinse and repeat.

Yeah, I don't want to import a foreign car. I understand why it is not possible today, and I don't care enough to change the law. It isn't a bad thing that we have our laws/cars and they have their laws/cars. It makes traveling a unique experience because you can see different things.

Let's face it, we live in a heavily globalized world. These days you can get just about any product from anywhere in a few days, but what that also does is take away the motivation to travel and see and experience different things around the world. Plus you can do cool shit like bring back beer from Germany like I did a couple weeks ago and enjoy and share it with friends in the USA.

The only thing I did was enlighten you on why this petition will not work. You did zero research and somehow tell me that I need to support fellow tuners. Hell no I don't need to blindly support fellow tuners if I don't want to. We have plenty of modifications/work arounds for importing things already. I don't want to walk out my door and see several R33s driving down the street.

Like really, would being able to import any vehicle you want really make things better for all of us? I don't think so. Honestly I'm just ranting now and I have way bigger fish to fry. To be frank, I'm not the one crying. Next time do your homework and come up with a better argument. But for now I am done arguing over the internet. If you want to have coffee we can spitball some stuff. I live in Philadelphia, PA. The invitation is open. If you don't want to travel, send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number and we can talk.

I respect both of those response,
Me I would tell the guy to flap harder and tell me how it goes. that is what we call a known known, not to work(or work in other instances)
This is a know unknown, why is it this way, Not to be confused with unknown unknown, what the hell is that.

It may be frivolous, but I promise it looked like a master piece compared to some of the other petitions going and probably will do little too effect the tuner perception.


I have to say I think the comparative study for safety standards seems like a pretty sound idea and would stop alot of waste on new testing. As well as save money. That would be a good step for shooting down the legislators arguments against it. Other than safety and emissions what legitimate arguments could they have other than "I don't want that" or my contributors don't want that. Which part of the current laws being in place are actually benefiting us?(us being everyone not affiliated with car manufactures that wants to drive) I find it hard to believe those cars are any dirtier or unsafe.

As far as products being available, well products have never been my motivation for traveling, even when they are available they are just not the same as when in their place of origin. seafood in the midwest would be one example.

If I find myself in Philly I would shoot the shit with you over a cup o joe, just don't start and end a discussion with that's dumb. Also make sure you know where to get some dark roast as thick as mud and able to raise the dead. preferable something local.

You have to at least think if they lawmakers seeing people trying to lift the ban, then they know increasing it would be a up hill battle for them.
I'm pretty sure the legislation is pretty arbitrary though.

I still stand by everything is a "Iwant", some people are just better at expressing it.
Shoot for the moon and maybe you will get what you want.

I posted the petition for the benefit of everyone who claims to want this which seemed to be alot.

G_man's petition would be as empty hearted as mine. He would be the wrong person to write it just as I would.
I'm not sure I can get behind the I don't want to see a bunch of R33's on my street argument.

When I have the resources and skills I will build a road-kart. Which would be perfectly legal where I live. As long as it's got a wind screen, head lights, turn signals, and brake lights.(it may not even be required to have turn signals, because hand signals) I wouldn't mind being able too smack around some overpriced imports in my hand built road-kart.(more overpriced than the ones that are currently here)

I got shitty over shitty responses, not because you don't want this.
I get tired of hearing that would be too hard.
I have not run across much that is as hard as people try to claim it is.