e85

[cb9love]

This was a quick google search
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...yIcqfPtA6Ylbgw

[deevergote]

My concern is this:

Right now, corn is produced at 171 bushels per acre (a record high, actually.)
One bushel of corn produces 2.8 gallons of ethanol.

That means we get roughly 4,800 gallons of ethanol per acre of farmland.


Now, I will assume gasoline and ethanol burn at the same rate resulting in the same MPG when used in vehicles. It is likely that overall, ethanol will be less efficient when used on a large scale... but my argument is strong enough working with the assumption that ethanol and gasoline burn at an equal rate, with equal efficiency.

In 2013, Americans used 134,506,764,000 gallons of gasoline.
134,506,764,000 divided by 2.8 = 48,038,130,000 bushels of corn.
The US is the largest producer of corn in the world, and our 2014 yield was somewhere around 14,000,000,000 bushels. Less than a third of what we would need to replace gasoline with ethanol.

48,038,130,000 divided by 171 = 280,924,736 acres. That's assuming a single harvest per year.
So, 280,924,736 acres.
That's 438,945 square miles. That's basically an area that is twice the size of California... all dedicated to corn production.
Currently, there are only about 80,000,000 acres of land dedicated to corn production in the US.


Yes, adding ethanol to gasoline reduces the consumption of a finite resource, while allowing the ethanol production to remain at a reasonable, sustainable level. That is precisely why we've been doing it.

But aiming for ethanol as a primary fuel source is unrealistic, unless someone can develop a way to drastically increase the ethanol yield per acre of land. I don't doubt that could be done with genetic modifications... but people aren't too keen on that sort of thing these days.

E85 is available in many places (though I don't know any up in my area), and companies have been making vehicles capable of using it for quite some time now. That's a step in the right direction, I suppose...

[cb9love]

I understand your concerns.
Corn is not the best choice for ethanol, but it also produces bio diesel, so it may be the better multi fuel source. Sugar beets is one of the best ethanol fuel sources and canola beans is one of the best biodiesel fuel sources.
Where are we to grow this extra fuel source you ask, Well I am so glad you asked. Next time you're cruising down the freeway look too the divide between the freeways, see all that grass being grown and being mowed with taxpayer money, yep that is where you grow your future fuel supply. Sugar beets don't grow as high as corn and neither does canola beans. I know It's not the northeast, but from Ohio I have been to Tennessee and Minnesota and research says I can go all the way to Colorado. Yep with more people burning it, it would be more available.
Once again just simple idealistic thinking.

[deevergote]

Interesting. Corn is usually the go-to crop when people think of ethanol. I'd be curious to see what sugar beet farming on a large scale would be like!

Fuel crops grown on the side of highways is also intriguing, though that presents a number of safety concerns for the people harvesting the crops. Additional safety precautions would need to be taken, which would end up being quite expensive.

Still, a more efficient source that could be grown in areas that are not suitable for the growth of food crops is an interesting proposition!

[cb9love]

the safety concerns of the people harvesting the fuel supply is a valid point, but is it any more dangerous than the road crews picking up the garbage, that trash throws out of their vehicles?

I do love yelling at the people, Look at the trash throwing the garbage on the ground.

[deevergote]

That's already fairly dangerous... but that's not a constant thing. Maintaining and harvesting fuel crops along the roadside would be fairly constant, and likely involve far more resources (human, machine, and financial)
The cost might end up greatly outweighing the benefit.

[cb9love]

Too me, i always see harvesting machines doing the work not individual people doing the harvesting. I also do not think it would be that much more than mowing the grass which does need to be done constantly and uses alot of resources with absolutely no return. Some return has to be better than no return.

[deevergote]

Harvesting sugar beets is probably going to be a bit more involved than mowing the grass, though.

[Rilas]

No harder than harvesting potatoes. Only marginally harder than harvesting corn/wheat/oats/barely.

Sugar Beet Harvesting

Deev you would seriously be surprised at the kinds of machines man creates to remove manual labor. I grew up on a 25,000 acre farm. One of our neighbors built a custom implement to replace 4 other ones because he got tired of unhooking the re-hooking them up all the time.

[cb9love]

that goes back to my belief that, If necessity is the mother of invention than laziness is the father.

[cb9love]

Potato's is another good source for fuel, after all it makes vodka

[F22Chris]

It's not just corn, potatoes, and beets. You can use any plant that is high in carbs/starch.

Great other sources would be like ANY type of squash (pumpkin, yellow, etc), parsnips, carrot, and even peas. If it can be turned into a strong drink, we can probably make some sort of ethanol. I'd like buying purple gas though from beets!

[cb9love]

It's not just corn, potatoes, and beets. You can use any plant that is high in carbs/starch.

Great other sources would be like ANY type of squash (pumpkin, yellow, etc), parsnips, carrot, and even peas. If it can be turned into a strong drink, we can probably make some sort of ethanol. I'd like buying purple gas though from beets!

yes sir, you get it.
We are currently stuck using corn, because the ethanol plants are near the rails that are owned by the corn co-op's and they pitched a hissy fit when the ethanol plants tried to use sugar to jump start their production after shutting down last time.

[oni_cb7]

Article ignores the fact that it takes machines that pollute to harvest any type of plant that is being used. Or any type of transportation for the fuel. (Almost all of these run on gasoline or diesel)

The article also ignores the increase of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde pollution from E85 vs Gasoline. These chemicals increase the ozone, not a good thing. This increase respiratory illnesses. Also, both of these are highly carcinogenic. Yes, E85 reduces the carcinogens that gasoline creates, but it increases its own carcinogens that are in lower amounts in gasoline. Some things are worse with gas and some are worse with E85.

I checked the sources that the article was citing and the cited articles weren't supporting all of the claims the original article made.

Is e85 the only answer? No. Can it help improve emissions? Kind of. Is it best to simply reduce all emissions from any vehicle using any type of fuel? YES.

[cb9love]

formaldehyde and acetaldehyde
Atmospheric levels of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde as well as their diurnal and seasonal variations were investigated from 1994 to 1997 in downtown Rome during sunny and wind calm days. Hourly concentrations of formaldehyde ranged from 8 to 28 ppbV in summer and 7 to 17 ppbv in winter; acetaldehyde concentrations varied correspondingly within the 3–18 and 2–7 ppbv intervals. Percentages of both aldehydes photochemically produced were estimated through a simple relationship based upon the comparison of individual ratios of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde to toluene in ambient air and automobile emission. Photochemical production was found to weigh upon atmospheric levels for 80–90% in summer days. It dropped below 35% in the winter period, when direct emission from traffic largely predominated. Photochemical summer source was more efficient for acetaldehyde than for formaldehyde, especially in the early morning. The importance of formaldehyde as the major source of hydroxyl radicals in Rome was also assessed.
Atmospheric Environment
Volume 36, Issue 19, July 2002, Pages 3195–3201

Hydroxyl radical
The hydroxyl radical, •OH, is the neutral form of the hydroxide ion (OH−). Hydroxyl radicals are highly reactive (easily becoming hydroxyl groups) and consequently short-lived; however, they form an important part of radical chemistry. Most notably hydroxyl radicals are produced from the decomposition of hydroperoxides (ROOH) or, in atmospheric chemistry, by the reaction of excited atomic oxygen with water. It is also an important radical formed in radiation chemistry, since it leads to the formation of hydrogen peroxide and oxygen, which can enhance corrosion and SCC in coolant systems subjected to radioactive environments. Hydroxyl radicals are also produced during UV-light dissociation of H2O2 (suggested in 1879) and likely in Fenton chemistry, where trace amounts of reduced transition metals catalyze peroxide-mediated oxidations of organic compounds.

In organic synthesis, hydroxyl radicals are most commonly generated by photolysis of 1-Hydroxy-2(1H)-pyridinethione.

The hydroxyl radical is often referred to as the "detergent" of the troposphere because it reacts with many pollutants, decomposing them through "cracking", often acting as the first step to their removal. It also has an important role in eliminating some greenhouse gases like methane and ozone.[2] The rate of reaction with the hydroxyl radical often determines how long many pollutants last in the atmosphere, if they do not undergo photolysis or are rained out. For instance methane, which reacts relatively slowly with hydroxyl radical, has an average lifetime of >5 years and many CFCs have lifetimes of 50+ years. Pollutants, such as larger hydrocarbons, can have very short average lifetimes of less than a few hours.

The first reaction with many volatile organic compounds (VOCs) is the removal of a hydrogen atom, forming water and an alkyl radical (R•).

•OH + RH → H2O + R•
The alkyl radical will typically react rapidly with oxygen forming a peroxy radical.

R• + O2 → RO2•
The fate of this radical in the troposphere is dependent on factors such as the amount of sunlight, pollution in the atmosphere and the nature of the alkyl radical that formed it (See chapters 12 & 13 in External Links "University Lecture notes on Atmospheric chemistry)
Hydroxyl radicals can occasionally be produced as a byproduct of immune action. Macrophages and microglia most frequently generate this compound when exposed to very specific pathogens, such as certain bacteria. The destructive action of hydroxyl radicals has been implicated in several neurological autoimmune diseases such as HAND when immune cells become over-activated and toxic to neighboring healthy cells.[3]

The hydroxyl radical can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations), lipids (lipid peroxidation), and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe to m-Tyrosine and o-Tyrosine). PMID 7776173. The hydroxyl radical has a very short in vivo half-life of approximately 10−9 seconds and a high reactivity.[4] This makes it a very dangerous compound to the organism.[5][6]

Unlike superoxide, which can be detoxified by superoxide dismutase, the hydroxyl radical cannot be eliminated by an enzymatic reaction. Mechanisms for scavenging peroxyl radicals for the protection of cellular structures includes endogenous antioxidants such as melatonin and glutathione, and dietary antioxidants such as mannitol and vitamin E.[5]
Importance in Earth's atmosphere
The hydroxyl •OH radical is one of the main chemical species controlling the oxidizing capacity of the global Earth atmosphere. This oxidizing reactive species has a major impact on the concentrations and distribution of greenhouse gases and pollutants in the Earth atmosphere. It is the most widespread oxidizer in the troposphere, the lowest part of the atmosphere. Understanding •OH variability is important to evaluating human impacts on the atmosphere and climate. The •OH species has a lifetime in the Earth atmosphere of less than one second.[7] Understanding the role of •OH in the oxidation process of methane (CH4) present in the atmosphere to first carbon monoxide (CO) and then carbon dioxide (CO2) is important for assessing the residence time of this greenhouse gas, the overall carbon budget of the troposphere, and its influence on the process of global warming. The lifetime of •OH radicals in the Earth atmosphere is very short, therefore •OH concentrations in the air are very low and very sensitive techniques are required for its direct detection.[8] Global average hydroxyl radical concentrations have been measured indirectly by analyzing methyl chloroform (CH3CCl3) present in the air. The results obtained by Montzka et al. (2011)[9] shows that the interannual variability in •OH estimated from CH3CCl3 measurements is small, indicating that global •OH is generally well buffered against perturbations. This small variability is consistent with measurements of methane and other trace gases primarily oxidized by •OH, as well as global photochemical model calculations.

In 2014, researchers reported their discovery of a "hole" or absence of hydroxyl throughout the entire depth of the troposphere across a large region of the tropical West Pacific. They suggested that this hole is permitting large quantities of ozone-degrading chemicals to reach the stratosphere, and that this may be significantly reinforcing ozone depletion in the polar regions with potential consequences for the climate of the Earth.[10]

Application in water purification
Hydroxyl radicals play a key role in the oxidative destruction of organic pollutant using a series of methodologies collectively known as advanced oxidation processes (AOPs). The destruction of pollutants in AOPs is based on the non-selective reaction of hydroxyl radicals on organic compounds. It is highly effective against a series of pollutants including pesticides, pharmaceutical compounds, dyes, etc

Peroxy radicals
Peroxy radicals are central to ozone photochemistry in the troposphere and lower stratosphere. The simplest of the family, HO2, interconverts readily with OH on a time scale of seconds.

HO2 + NO Æ OH + NO2

OH + CO (+ O2) Æ HO2 + CO2

Organic peroxy radicals are formed in the oxidation of hydrocarbons and other organic molecules. For example, methane reacts to form the methyl peroxy radical, CH3O2, which reacts rapidly with NO to give the methoxy radical.

OH + CH4 Æ H2O + CH3

CH3 + O2 + M Æ CH3O2 + M

CH3O2 + NO Æ CH3O + NO2

The reactions of peroxy radicals with NO are the critical steps in the photochemical formation of ozone, since the NO2 generated photodissociates at wavelengths which are available throughout the troposphere (l > 300 nm).

NO2 + hn Æ NO + O

O + O2 + M Æ O3 + M

This combination of a hydrocarbon "fuel", NO "catalyst", and sun light lead to photochemical ozone production when molecular oxygen cannot be photodissociated

Edit

Ozone’s Role in Atmospheric Cleansing
On the positive side, ozone plays a beneficial and important role in the atmosphere’s wonderful self-cleansing function. Ozone is the primary precursor of the hydroxyl radical. The hydroxyl radical is so called because it has an unpaired electron in its outermost electronic orbit. Unpaired electrons are "lonely" and readily pair up with others, forming chemical bonds. The hydroxyl radical serves as the main scavenger in the atmosphere, reacting with a variety of compounds such as hydrocarbons, hydrogen sulfide, and carbon monoxide that would otherwise accumulate and poison us.

In summary
Burning organic fuels will increase ozone and decrease pollution.