wow the domestic car scene is jumping.

[sonikaccord]

I just looked at a dyno of the ST, It starts out with lots of torque at lower rpms and turns into a playground slide at 4.5k.

The new Si looks like a typical Honda dyno. Not much torque relative to the FiST, but it maintains it all the way to 8k.

The TL SH-AWD comes in stick. They are very hard to find...

[h22sparkle]

The new NSX had an inverter fire I believe. Needs more cooling and tuning like h22sparkle said. The RLX is probably going to be the closest you get to the NSXs powertrain for a while.

The Fiesta ST is one of the more interesting domestic cars to me. I was browsing the ST forums and a lot of Fiesta ST owners are Honda converts. They say it's more fun than the new Si, faster, handles better, etc. I'm sure Ford left torque on the table left to be unlocked so there is your tuning potential.

The Japanese imports have a different focus (no pun intended). They don't have true sport variants of their models. excluding the Si. The SE-R lines are dead, Toyota...ha, Of course there is still the Evo's and STi's of the world.

The Germans have been pretty consistent as they still have ///M, AMG, GTi, S's etc.

The Koreans...well K900, Genesis R-Spec, turbo models.

The Americans have good ole V8s like always AND turbo 4/6 models to compete with the imports...

The fiesta st is definitely one of the cars that are taking it to another level of handling and that's for a fwd car which is why I'm kinda shocked. Ford took this approach and they made good on it.

[h22sparkle]

I simply can't abide a twist beam rear axle. Won't do it. I thought about them for a second, but decided if I were to buy a new car, there would be other choices. Of course, short of a new Accord V6 6MT, I am not sure my next car would be a Honda anyway, and there aren't really any Acuras at the moment that interest me, because I don't want an auto SH-AWD TLX (I would be all over a manual version), and the I4 doesn't do it for me.

As for the new Si, I drove a 2012 and didn't like it, but the 2013 and newer are supposedly much improved. However, that is mainly why I decided to keep my '09 Si, even though I had originally intended to trade it in on a new Si. I don't know that the Fiesta is much faster in stock form as every tested ET and trap speed I have seen is virtually identical. However, I would agree that there is more headroom for tuning in the Fiesta, because frankly, Honda neutered the K series, and it is always easier to just turn the boost up.

Lol @ the Cadillac pimp scene but you gotta admit those cars get up and everytime a newer model is out they improve on it which I'm under the impression that they are actually listening to thefeedback of their customers.

It really bothers me I haven't heard anything about the srt4 aka dart on steroids. As for the new civic si they look nice I actually was on the verge of buying one myself when I was looking up what was on the market but I held back to make sure I wait to see what are thenflaws going to be.

They added a little bit of speed on the previous models but not enough to feel the difference . is it a great car yes is it worth me buying a newer model when I can hook mine up not in my eyes.

I like this year si better the only difference is are the options to be honest. The whole lane-watch with display and GPS and satellite radio its okay but I'm a bare bones kind of guy. I always admired the fact of that whole electrical steering deal. But then I heard of the recall hmmm they even sent a letter.

[h22sparkle]

Honestly the ford first st reminds me of the focus svt and Mazda speed 3 new model the latest year. I think a few people will run with that.

[owequitit]

I just looked at a dyno of the ST, It starts out with lots of torque at lower rpms and turns into a playground slide at 4.5k.

The new Si looks like a typical Honda dyno. Not much torque relative to the FiST, but it maintains it all the way to 8k.

The TL SH-AWD comes in stick. They are very hard to find...

The TLX doesn't have a manual option with AWD. Only 9 speed auto, which is a good transmission, but not as fun or able to control the benefits of SH-AWD as an MT. I wouldn't seek a manual version of the TL SH-AWD because it was ugly and poorly proportioned, and I would find something else to spend my money on, like an Accord V6 6MT coupe.

Lol @ the Cadillac pimp scene but you gotta admit those cars get up and everytime a newer model is out they improve on it which I'm under the impression that they are actually listening to thefeedback of their customers.

It really bothers me I haven't heard anything about the srt4 aka dart on steroids. As for the new civic si they look nice I actually was on the verge of buying one myself when I was looking up what was on the market but I held back to make sure I wait to see what are thenflaws going to be.

They added a little bit of speed on the previous models but not enough to feel the difference . is it a great car yes is it worth me buying a newer model when I can hook mine up not in my eyes.

I like this year si better the only difference is are the options to be honest. The whole lane-watch with display and GPS and satellite radio its okay but I'm a bare bones kind of guy. I always admired the fact of that whole electrical steering deal. But then I heard of the recall hmmm they even sent a letter.

They just extended the warranty on the electric power steering as far as I know. I got my letter in the mail the other day, but it just said if it isn't working, bring it in and we will fix it before 100K miles.

Other than that, mine hasn't had a single issue, and still drives like it did when I bought it despite having 77K miles.

[h22sparkle]

Another vehicle is the acura rdx with the turbo motor. A lot of folks are having issues with boost. Sure the car looks pretty decent inside is that type r motor based of that motor.

[h22sparkle]

http://astricars.com/2015-honda-civi...type-r-engine/

[h22sparkle]

Owequitit and others you see even in this article about pricing of the civic type r you even see the rumor that its going to start at around 35 k or slightly more.

[sonikaccord]

0-100km/h in just over 6 seconds? I pray that it does it in less than 5...the 9th gen accord 4 banger MT has been clocked in at about 6.6s. The Type-R should be lighter and have more power...I don't like the speculations, the price or the looks of the concept.

[owequitit]

Another vehicle is the acura rdx with the turbo motor. A lot of folks are having issues with boost. Sure the car looks pretty decent inside is that type r motor based of that motor.

The RDX engine was a one off based on the K24.

All of the new turbo engines are completely new from the ground up.

As for price, the European price might be near $35K, but you can't just translate numbers into USD and assume that is what it will cost. We have no confirmation that there even will be a Type R here yet, so there is no talk of US pricing whatsoever.

[owequitit]

0-100km/h in just over 6 seconds? I pray that it does it in less than 5...the 9th gen accord 4 banger MT has been clocked in at about 6.6s. The Type-R should be lighter and have more power...I don't like the speculations, the price or the looks of the concept.

Honda is sandbagging that car. "at least 280HP" is probably actually 300+, and even if the car weighs in at 3,000lbs, it will have a power to weight ratio of around 10:1. They have also apparently done a tremendous amount of work on the front end to maximize traction, although I am not convinced how well it work.

The Accord in comparison is around 3300lbs for the Sport Model MT and has only about 200HP at the crank, maybe a little less.

[AccordWarrior]

Is the new NSX actually being released? I've lost track of most of the hypercars, but I thought it was slowly becoming vaporware? Is it different from what they previewed in the Super Bowl ad a few years back?

My concern with cars that have been hyped for so long is how outdated will it be by the time they're actually released. The Camaro was hyped for quite awhile before it actually came out, and whether that first generation was a let down compared to expectations is up for debate I suppose. They sold a bunch, though.

The Lexus LF-A is another great example. It was a great car, no doubt, and with a limited production run, sales weren't as much of a concern, but the car was outdated compared to its competition. The GT-R could wipe the floor with it at significantly less cost. (I'm not a huge GT-R guy, but just for sake of comparison).

That being said, the bar is being raised so high these days it's unreal. Your average family sedan can outrun a Ferrari 308 which was one of the 1980s high water marks (at least until the Countach/Testarossa came out).

That being said, it's interesting to see who is making the sporty cars now. Honda hasn't been all that competitive on that front as of late. The Si is starting to become soft compared to the market (especially with the heat of the GTI and Focus ST). Nissan doesn't really have anything competitive on the low end of the scale at this point.

The interesting thing is with the impending death of the Evo (or not depending on the day) and the stagnant development of the STi (really Subaru, 305 hp?), you're seeing the cars that may have been a tier lower (GTI, MS3, Focus ST) start nipping at the heels of those cars. I auto-x'd a Focus ST the summer of 2013 and was VERY impressed with how the car handled. I thought it was a better drivers car than the Scion FR-S I did the same thing to earlier in the season. That being said, the Scion was hampered by a poor automatic transmission and a course design that highlighted the lack of low end power.

The wildcard in this whole argument is the Mustang GT. Ford finally managed to make a Mustang that is better than the reputation. Back when I was car shopping the Mustang still had the reputation of fast in a straight line driven by bros who hated imports. Now more and more I read that they've made a legitimate BMW M car chaser. The most recent article I read in Road and Track compared the GT to a E36 M3 which is exceedingly high praise.

When I bought my STi in 2007 I wanted the fastest all around car out of the factory that I could buy at my pricepoint and it was an easy choice (given Mitsubishi's reputation at the time for reliability). These days I don't know what I'd buy. If Scion made a FR-S Targa, I'd trade my STi tomorrow, but if the Mustang GT was cheaper, I can't say I wouldn't go that route. I priced one out, but I was at like 34K with the track pack and Recaros, and yet another vehicle I like w/o a sunroof option.

[owequitit]

Is the new NSX actually being released? I've lost track of most of the hypercars, but I thought it was slowly becoming vaporware? Is it different from what they previewed in the Super Bowl ad a few years back?

My concern with cars that have been hyped for so long is how outdated will it be by the time they're actually released. The Camaro was hyped for quite awhile before it actually came out, and whether that first generation was a let down compared to expectations is up for debate I suppose. They sold a bunch, though.

The Lexus LF-A is another great example. It was a great car, no doubt, and with a limited production run, sales weren't as much of a concern, but the car was outdated compared to its competition. The GT-R could wipe the floor with it at significantly less cost. (I'm not a huge GT-R guy, but just for sake of comparison).

That being said, the bar is being raised so high these days it's unreal. Your average family sedan can outrun a Ferrari 308 which was one of the 1980s high water marks (at least until the Countach/Testarossa came out).

That being said, it's interesting to see who is making the sporty cars now. Honda hasn't been all that competitive on that front as of late. The Si is starting to become soft compared to the market (especially with the heat of the GTI and Focus ST). Nissan doesn't really have anything competitive on the low end of the scale at this point.

The interesting thing is with the impending death of the Evo (or not depending on the day) and the stagnant development of the STi (really Subaru, 305 hp?), you're seeing the cars that may have been a tier lower (GTI, MS3, Focus ST) start nipping at the heels of those cars. I auto-x'd a Focus ST the summer of 2013 and was VERY impressed with how the car handled. I thought it was a better drivers car than the Scion FR-S I did the same thing to earlier in the season. That being said, the Scion was hampered by a poor automatic transmission and a course design that highlighted the lack of low end power.

The wildcard in this whole argument is the Mustang GT. Ford finally managed to make a Mustang that is better than the reputation. Back when I was car shopping the Mustang still had the reputation of fast in a straight line driven by bros who hated imports. Now more and more I read that they've made a legitimate BMW M car chaser. The most recent article I read in Road and Track compared the GT to a E36 M3 which is exceedingly high praise.

When I bought my STi in 2007 I wanted the fastest all around car out of the factory that I could buy at my pricepoint and it was an easy choice (given Mitsubishi's reputation at the time for reliability). These days I don't know what I'd buy. If Scion made a FR-S Targa, I'd trade my STi tomorrow, but if the Mustang GT was cheaper, I can't say I wouldn't go that route. I priced one out, but I was at like 34K with the track pack and Recaros, and yet another vehicle I like w/o a sunroof option.

The NSX has been confirmed for production, and a production version is supposed to be shown in Detroit. The superbowl ad was actually only a couple years ago (typical development time is about 5 years), but I get what you are saying.

It is actually right on schedule (the promised a release in 2015) and it will debut in January, probably to enter production in the 2nd half of the year.

There were a couple of internal battles/growing pains with it though.

First, it was mandated that it be hybrid. So they chose to use the basis of the RLX hybrid system in the car, which is more of a performance enhancer with a LOT of electric HP, and independent motors for each wheel. The front axle will have 1 motor for each side (allowing direct torque vectoring at 0 RPM, as well as differential regenerative braking on the opposite side, for even more impact). The rear axle will be powered by the gas engine, plus a bigger electric motor in the transmission (similar to F1 style KERS). The battery is mounted in the middle by the firewall for minimal CG effect, and as I understand, the fuel tank is there as well (for the same reason).

Second, apparently Honda Japan management was pushing for a version of the J35 to be boosted and put in there, but the US design team was convinced that wasn't enough because of the limitations of the J series itself, as well as the limitations of a transverse setup (one of the things that limited the first NSX's ability to add more power). The battle raged, and eventually Japan relented, allowing the US design team to build not only a bespoke 90* V6, but also to turbocharge the shit out of it, and then mount it longitudinally, so there is room for future growth, as well as allowing more efficient plumbing. This change required some substantial redesign, but also allowed them MUCH more headroom in development. Rumors have the gas engine at 500-600HP initially, PLUS the boost of the electric system I think a factor with the hybrid system that is different is that the electric motor in the back directly drives the final drive set, which gives it a much wider range of operation than a conventional electric motor would. It may also be directly connected to the crank shaft. Details are still sort of mum. What is known is that the initial version of the V6 is rumored to be approximately 3.5L, and is capable of growing to somewhere around 4 liters and probably well over 700HP. Hybrid boost should be around 200HP for a total system output of at least 650HP (they aren't directly additive).

Of course, Honda is working the other end of the equation by minimizing size and weight. The car is barely larger than the 1st NSX (although significantly wider) and word is they are working for a weight as close to 3,000lbs as they can get it. We'll see what they come up with, but based on size and the materials being used, I would expect it to be no more than the Corvette's ~3300lbs, and hopefully less, since it will be all aluminum and is likely to have some significant CF in there as well. The last Z06 Vette barely topped 3,000lbs.

Everything else in the pipe is rumored (except for turbo engines), but the NSX is confirmed.

As for the Si, I think Honda saw that they weren't going to be able to develop the K series anymore (even though a 2.2L version with DOHC i-VTEC, with VTEC on both sides allowing it to breath would have put down 230+ HP pretty easily while keeping the 8K RPM redline). The greenie managers put the brakes on it, leaving them with the TSX engine. With class losing HP and near class losing acceleration, the best they could do to keep sales up was to make it more appealing. I am hoping we will see more hardcore tuning on the next Si. Of course, with my generation, it still wasn't as hardcore as a lot of options in the segment, but was a lot more livable than most (or cheaper than cars like the GTI), although with some of the HFP parts, that changed significantly, at least handling wise.

I don't know if they will fix it, but they seem to have let the nuts get in charge that wanted to make a huge push away from their core market and values, and now they seem to have realized that was a mistake. If you believe some insiders, this has actually been a waging war since the 1980's, and it finally came to a head a few years ago.

I am in the same boat as you though, I don't know what I would buy next. I love the Accord Coupe EX-L V6 6 speed, but it needs an LSD. The TLX is nice, but it is auto only in the AWD version now. I would probably get a BMW 3 series or a used S4 or something if I were in the market this second (assuming it wasn't the Accord 6MT).

[owequitit]

Here it is on the track.

http://www.edmunds.com/auto-shows/to...auto-show.html

Here are some "prototype" powertrain pics.

[h22sparkle]

The NSX has been confirmed for production, and a production version is supposed to be shown in Detroit. The superbowl ad was actually only a couple years ago (typical development time is about 5 years), but I get what you are saying.

It is actually right on schedule (the promised a release in 2015) and it will debut in January, probably to enter production in the 2nd half of the year.

There were a couple of internal battles/growing pains with it though.

First, it was mandated that it be hybrid. So they chose to use the basis of the RLX hybrid system in the car, which is more of a performance enhancer with a LOT of electric HP, and independent motors for each wheel. The front axle will have 1 motor for each side (allowing direct torque vectoring at 0 RPM, as well as differential regenerative braking on the opposite side, for even more impact). The rear axle will be powered by the gas engine, plus a bigger electric motor in the transmission (similar to F1 style KERS). The battery is mounted in the middle by the firewall for minimal CG effect, and as I understand, the fuel tank is there as well (for the same reason).

Second, apparently Honda Japan management was pushing for a version of the J35 to be boosted and put in there, but the US design team was convinced that wasn't enough because of the limitations of the J series itself, as well as the limitations of a transverse setup (one of the things that limited the first NSX's ability to add more power). The battle raged, and eventually Japan relented, allowing the US design team to build not only a bespoke 90* V6, but also to turbocharge the shit out of it, and then mount it longitudinally, so there is room for future growth, as well as allowing more efficient plumbing. This change required some substantial redesign, but also allowed them MUCH more headroom in development. Rumors have the gas engine at 500-600HP initially, PLUS the boost of the electric system I think a factor with the hybrid system that is different is that the electric motor in the back directly drives the final drive set, which gives it a much wider range of operation than a conventional electric motor would. It may also be directly connected to the crank shaft. Details are still sort of mum. What is known is that the initial version of the V6 is rumored to be approximately 3.5L, and is capable of growing to somewhere around 4 liters and probably well over 700HP. Hybrid boost should be around 200HP for a total system output of at least 650HP (they aren't directly additive).

Of course, Honda is working the other end of the equation by minimizing size and weight. The car is barely larger than the 1st NSX (although significantly wider) and word is they are working for a weight as close to 3,000lbs as they can get it. We'll see what they come up with, but based on size and the materials being used, I would expect it to be no more than the Corvette's ~3300lbs, and hopefully less, since it will be all aluminum and is likely to have some significant CF in there as well. The last Z06 Vette barely topped 3,000lbs.

Everything else in the pipe is rumored (except for turbo engines), but the NSX is confirmed.

As for the Si, I think Honda saw that they weren't going to be able to develop the K series anymore (even though a 2.2L version with DOHC i-VTEC, with VTEC on both sides allowing it to breath would have put down 230+ HP pretty easily while keeping the 8K RPM redline). The greenie managers put the brakes on it, leaving them with the TSX engine. With class losing HP and near class losing acceleration, the best they could do to keep sales up was to make it more appealing. I am hoping we will see more hardcore tuning on the next Si. Of course, with my generation, it still wasn't as hardcore as a lot of options in the segment, but was a lot more livable than most (or cheaper than cars like the GTI), although with some of the HFP parts, that changed significantly, at least handling wise.

I don't know if they will fix it, but they seem to have let the nuts get in charge that wanted to make a huge push away from their core market and values, and now they seem to have realized that was a mistake. If you believe some insiders, this has actually been a waging war since the 1980's, and it finally came to a head a few years ago.

I am in the same boat as you though, I don't know what I would buy next. I love the Accord Coupe EX-L V6 6 speed, but it needs an LSD. The TLX is nice, but it is auto only in the AWD version now. I would probably get a BMW 3 series or a used S4 or something if I were in the market this second (assuming it wasn't the Accord 6MT).

Since everything is going to be more electric based they really should leave the civic si and type r alone. They are making the cars heavier and less appealing. I still think the 8th generation is still good compared to the newer models.

The new models are heavier with a little more power that's really not making a difference to the power to weight ratio. I wonder about these newer generation of cars they get longer and more bulky every generation.