Controversial discussion... please keep it mature!

[deevergote]

I don't want to ban anyone, so I'll preface this discussion with this warning. PLEASE keep your comments mature, and keep yourself from getting angry. People are going to disagree with you. Discuss your point of view calmly, as a mature adult... or please don't continue with the discussion at all.

I got into this discussion on my friend's Facebook wall, and I think I may have pissed off some of his friends. I knew it would happen, as most of his friends are of a similar "type" (basically, hipsters...) I really don't care, but I don't want it to get heated on here. Let's see if we can have a mature discussion without drama!


Anyway, the source of the discussion was this:

The link is a petition to help an 18 year old lesbian girl who is being charged with statutory rape by her 15 year old girlfriend's parents. The relationship had gone on for about a year (making the girlfriend 14, and the girl in question 17... still a minor.)
This occurred in Florida, which has an age of consent of 18 years old. They supposedly have what was referred to as a "Romeo and Juliet clause" that makes relationships legal between a 16 or 17 year old minor and an adult up to the age of 24 (not sure how this differs from the age of consent... but regardless, it does not apply to the 15 year old girlfriend.)

The parents of the 15 year old disapproved of the relationship, and accused the 18 year old (Kate) of "making their daughter ***." Once Kate turned 18, they pressed charges. Kate faces up to 15 years in jail, and will be labeled as a sex offender for the rest of her life.
Pretty hefty stuff.


Now, my friend and all his hipster pals are saying that this girl should not be charged. That it was a consensual relationship, and that it's only an issue because the parents are absolute bigots.



Personally, I disagree.
I agree that the parents are bigots, and I'm not cool with that.
I DO think it was pretty lousy of them to wait until Kate was 18 to hit her with something that carries such a severe penalty.
BUT, as a legal adult, Kate DID break the law. I feel she should be subject to the same punishment any other 18 year old adult would be facing if they were caught in a sexual relationship with a 15 year old child.
In my mind, any ruling that says Kate is not responsible as an adult in this situation would be to declare 2 things (setting a legal precedent)... that a 15 year old is capable of entering into a mature adult relationship (or that an 18 year old is still too emotionally immature to do so), AND that "lesbian sex is not real sex" (setting the equality efforts of the *** community back about 20 years.)



Your thoughts?
Please keep your responses mature. Feel free to disagree with me, or your fellow members, but don't let it get out of hand.
If your first response is "she should go to jail because homosexuality is wrong", then this is not the discussion for you. Please refrain from posting, because that is not what this is about.

I know I'm the one posting this thread, and I know the risk I am taking making it an open OT discussion... but I will not hesitate to ban if you take things too far. This is your warning. Please keep the discussion mature and respectful.

[steelbluesleepR]

Many states have a 3-year window, I believe, so depending on the state laws (and the birthdates of the two girls), it's a legal relationship. However if it is in fact illegal in the state they live in, it should be prosecuted just as hard as if an 18 year old dude was having sex with a 15 year old girl.

I personally don't care if it's legal, IMO, that's wrong anyway. I know kids are growing up way faster than they used to, but a 14/15 year old is not mature enough to be making those kinds of decisions. shitty parenting 101.

[jhoff]

I seen this Deev. At first I didnt know what to think. As a parent, I could see there point. Every dad wants to see their daughter happy and marry the right man to take care of her. So I could see their anger there. I have a daughter and want her to marry a man. If she did bring home a girl, I would be disspointed at first, but would grow to understand her life choices. Their happy and the parents should of let them be happy. She did break the law Deev, there is no getting around that. However, if this had been going on for year, the parents should have sat down with their daughter and talked to them both. They need to understand this how they feel and work. I think its bullshit that they waited till she was eightteen to turn her in. They let it go on for a year, knowing these girls were falling in love and enjoying life, just to ruin it. Just to kill the love their daughter built with this girl. That I dont understand. So should she be charged, yes and no. I dont agree with calling her a "Sex Offender". She is not one or even close. But she did break the law, and she should do some classes and maybe some probation.

My current girlfriend and the mother of my daughter is 8 years younger than I am. She is more mature than my sons mom who is only a couple years younger than I am. IMO, Age doesnt mean shit. But there is a law and it must be followed.

[deevergote]

Agreed (though I met my ex wife on my 18th birthday... she was 15 at the time... BUT I was smart enough to keep it "PG-13" until she turned 16, which is the age of consent in NJ.)

The ONLY argument I have in the girl's defense is that the parents of the 15 year old allowed it to continue for over a year. Regardless of their opposition, which I'm sure was voiced regularly over that year, they did not stop it from happening. As the parents of that child, they were responsible for keeping her safe at all costs. They failed to do that, and allowed her to be "abused".
Doesn't change Kate's responsibility as an adult, but it shows that the parents aren't 100% innocent in the matter either. It almost seems as if they allowed it to continue intentionally, so they could use the law as a weapon.

[Ralphie]

Ya can't really argue that.

She is an adult, and with that, carries responsibilty.

You want to be cute when in school, that's one thing. Once you graduate or hit 18, it's time to take the reigns whether you're ready or not.

It's tough, because they wouldn't obv break up just to wait it out....

and it's unfair that these parents would do this to another child, but if someone randomly reported it out of concern, the same results would apply.

Take the bigotry out, thats just salt on the wound.

It sucks the penalties are so high, but she may not get the fullest extent of the law since she isn't a pedo....just a kid as well.


And I agree 100%, its shitty parenting.

They will destroy their own daughter by following through with this.

As they say, assholes are shortsighted.

[TracieS]

What the patents did wasn't cool. But if she gets off that wouldn't be fair to everybody else who was in the same situation who got charged.

[deevergote]

The "sex offender" laws are scary. I could be at work (driving endlessly) and have to take a leak. If I happened to stop and pee behind a tree that was too close to a school, I could be charged and labeled for life as a sex offender.
But, I am also aware of that, and will never take that risk!

The laws aren't there to surprise anyone. They're there for anyone to read... and they are expected to be followed.



Apparently Kate is attempting to arrange a plea to a lesser charge, a misdemeanor, and agreeing to cut off the relationship at least until the younger girl is of a legal age. I can agree with that, I do hope she gets that sort of arrangement.

[Ralphie]

The "sex offender" laws are scary. I could be at work (driving endlessly) and have to take a leak. If I happened to stop and pee behind a tree that was too close to a school, I could be charged and labeled for life as a sex offender.
But, I am also aware of that, and will never take that risk!

The laws aren't there to surprise anyone. They're there for anyone to read... and they are expected to be followed.



Apparently Kate is attempting to arrange a plea to a lesser charge, a misdemeanor, and agreeing to cut off the relationship at least until the younger girl is of a legal age. I can agree with that, I do hope she gets that sort of arrangement.

Ya the Sex Offender laws are harsh, but I fully support them.

Not that you would, but if someone came to me and said "oh I peed near the school but I didn't realize it was a school" I wouldn't believe them and in the time we live in with all the public restrooms etc, it would be their own fault lol.

Ya no judge in their right mind will throw the book at her. It was just an innocent relationship, but it really isn't different then a man/girl.....

so she will be in trouble but hopefully just probation etc.

[steelbluesleepR]

Apparently Kate is attempting to arrange a plea to a lesser charge, a misdemeanor, and agreeing to cut off the relationship at least until the younger girl is of a legal age. I can agree with that, I do hope she gets that sort of arrangement.

That sounds like the best possible outcome for everyone.

[deevergote]

Not that you would, but if someone came to me and said "oh I peed near the school but I didn't realize it was a school" I wouldn't believe them and in the time we live in with all the public restrooms etc, it would be their own fault lol.
.

You'd be surprised how many seemingly secluded wooded areas there are in the more remote parts of NJ that have a school tucked back in the trees!

[Joey GT-R]

I realize that the law is black and white, but sometimes I believe we have to search ourselves and determine what is the "Spirit of the Law". Just like with murder trials when they try to determine if it was accidental or intentional, what is the Law itself trying to protect and uphold?

If they are going to be black and white about it there should be a suit against the parents for endangerment of their child since they willingly let their child have sex with an adult.


I say she walks. Otherwise both parties have to burn to some extent.

IMHO the statute should be from 14-21 at the most. So kids in high school don't have this issue whatsoever; it also would cover HS upperclassmen who may have significant others in the first couple years of college.

[deevergote]

Good points, Joey.

I believe that in the "spirit of the law", she should be given a lesser penalty. Perhaps one not bearing the sex offender status. But I would say allowing her to walk would set a VERY dangerous precedent (one that could be abused in defense of actual child molesters!)

I do agree with the endagerment. The parents were aware, and regardless of their protests, they did not stop it from happening. If they are incapable of preventing their 14-15 year old from dating this girl, then they are bad parents. If they intentionally allowed this to happen, only to press charges against Kate for "damaging" their daughter, then they were allowing their daughter to come to harm (in their eyes, anyway) in order to hold out for their opportunity for revenge.

[Domesticated]

I've actually been in this situation. I was a senior in high school, 18 years old. I meet a girl at a party who went to the local community college. I later found out she was 17 and was just advancing through school very quickly and I didn't really care she was 17 because I didn't think anything would happen. We dated for a while and had a good relationship. She ended up leaving me for my best friend and I didn't really care. Our mutual friends started giving her shit and calling her names. She flipped out and decided to get back at me. Told the police we had sex. The cop that spoke with me was a family friend so I told him the two times we had sex as he reassured me I would be taken good care of. Both times it was on her and the first time she wanted to surprise me by sneaking in my house and climbing on me while I was sleeping. So it was clear she initiated both instances and she also admitted to it in the police report. Nothing happened for three years and when I was 21 I got a notice I was being taken to court for rape. Long story short it was a cut and dry case because my "friend" took what I said three years ago as a confession and I got away with malicious injury to a child instead of the two felony rape charges and two years withheld judgement. My lawyer cost was 8k, the court cost was 2400, and I had to pay the girl 2k for "damages". I found out afterwards that I was the third guy she had done it to and received a few thousand from each one for "damages". I was on felony sex offender probation until I paid the 4400. I had an 8pm curfew, I couldn't see my family at their homes because they all have guns and alcohol, they almost made me quit my job working at a bar, I almost had to drop out of college because I couldn't be within a certain distance of schools, it almost ruined my life. I got extremely depressed because I would never get a job as an engineer and my future was ruined. I was so mad someone would do this. One day when I was in an argument with a respected friend I came to the realization that no matter how fucked it was, it was still my fault. I was aware of her age and the law. I could have said no, but I didn't. Now I take responsibility for everything I do. So I got my fines paid off in two months and was off probation. I got a job at Chrysler and went through probation problem free. The judge made me come back into court at the end just to congratulate me on how well I have done. He said he never brings successful people in, but he wanted to personally congratulate me. It was kinda cool, but I was still a bit offended how everyone treated me like a child molester through the whole process. Now all charges have been dropped and I'm doing just fine, minus the huge amount of money it cost me.

So my opinion, I hold no remorse for people who are aware of the law, no matter how silly the law may seem, and break it anyway. Do I still break laws? Sure, I drink on a disc golf course, I do ten over the limit on the freeway, sometimes I don't pay for music, but if I get caught it's on me and pay the consequences.

[zmanwit90accord]

A short side story that kind of relates:

A friend of my dad is sort of going through this, or already did. Her son is about 16-17 and was apparently having a homosexual relationship with an older man (I'm talking like late 20s, maybe ever early 30s).

This particular family happens to be very religious and part of the main reasoning for them to press charges on the older man was because they didn't think a homosexual relationship was right. She also went on to say that even if it wasn't, she would still be just as devastated because of the age difference.

So I guess it's all comparative. Like the crazy couples they show on Maury or Jerry Springer, a young kid (15-16) with anyone over the age of 27ish is just weird for us to understand. Yes it's wrong according to the law but in my opinion age doesn't and shouldn't matter, as long as it's consensual of course.

The relationship here is obviously consensual since it's been going on for a while and it seems like the "victim" doesn't want her parents to go through with the charges. It could be a serious relationship or she could just be in an experimental phase.

Either way, poor parenting is the real crime here and it is just too bad that there is no punishment for that.

[turboAccordHSF]

I read everyone's post and input, and it seems everyone is pretty much agreeing here with each other.

I don't like the consequences Kate has to face, she's just 18 man doesn't everyone find that a tiny bit disturbing that she is just a little girl? I mean okay she's 18 and has responsibilities, and needs to be an adult.

Well so when are the 15 yr old parents going to be adults too? Waiting till she turned 18 is pretty weak man what kind of game are they playing here. Lack of parenting there, and they could of easily prevented this relationship to happen by talking to her I mean she's just 15?! 13-14 when the relationship even started?

And is this a common thing to happen? Because I don't remember seeing any lesbians being charged for statutory rape? That's got me a little confused on how can a female be charged with such a serious crime. Yet it does involve a minor and when that happens anybody is taken serious and anything can happened.

Though as a Parent, if it was my daughter I'd be pretty pissed , in fact really piss I wouldn't allow such thing to happen and as for her being ***, I'd rather blame myself than blame my daughters for that ...


With that said, I hope they go easy in her man. That sucks. Hope she learns from this big mistake age isn't just a number.

So I have to agree with all of you evaluate truly law is law no short cut around them...