Discussions on Money (The FED and shiz)

[bobbycos]

i still am waiting for my bailout


i have not and will not buy a "brand new" car

i limit my clothing purchases to what i do need and not want

next step is to go "exempt" on my taxes because i could really use the money

[BIGRICH]

only reason i dont give a shit about this stuff is that "I" cant do a damn thing to change the direction or course it has taken....especially as far as it has gotten....

now, someone blow some more smoke up my ass about how my attitude toward it is the reason why we are where we are.....lmao, get real bitches.

[LadyG]

Do you know who represents you in congress?
Do you vote?

Or to be A-political

By buying things that are used, by not getting into debt- by not using credit cards and sticking to what you can pay for; basically by refusing to participate.
Also buying and storing things of intrinsic value- guns, tools, ect.
Savings in actual money is a direct threat to this system.

Not to get too doomsday up in a piece, but somethings are valuable regardless of what the current currency is.
As an Example:

Towards the end of the civil war, the Confederate Treasury had run out of gold- and they kept printing money. Eventually, the European Countries that had been trading with the South, realized the South's debts (payable to them only in gold- THE international currency at the time) were not going to be paid.
This is when the "hyper inflation" of the confederate currency happened. Common goods could not be had for barrels of Confederate dollars- but gold bought the same amount North of the Mason/Dixon as South of it. The point is- some things are valuable always- and somethings are valuable only because other people think it is.

I like the idea of competing currencies based on commodities.
Places like the Congo (where a F* ton of rare earth metals are mined-all our portable devices need that stuff to work) would have trading power in the currency markets/commodity markets- and no one would be inflating it. The profits from their commodities and currency exchanges would belong only to the Government- with no debt attached.
The Congo would have to buy their land back from the African Branch of the American Based Corporation currently mining it... but no one wants to talk about THAT.

Am I rambling to an empty room?

[ferenza]

Do you know who represents you in congress?
Do you vote?

Or to be A-political

By buying things that are used, by not getting into debt- by not using credit cards and sticking to what you can pay for; basically by refusing to participate.
Also buying and storing things of intrinsic value- guns, tools, ect.
Savings in actual money is a direct threat to this system.

Not to get too doomsday up in a piece, but somethings are valuable regardless of what the current currency is.
As an Example:

Towards the end of the civil war, the Confederate Treasury had run out of gold- and they kept printing money. Eventually, the European Countries that had been trading with the South, realized the South's debts (payable to them only in gold- THE international currency at the time) were not going to be paid.
This is when the "hyper inflation" of the confederate currency happened. Common goods could not be had for barrels of Confederate dollars- but gold bought the same amount North of the Mason/Dixon as South of it. The point is- some things are valuable always- and somethings are valuable only because other people think it is.

I like the idea of competing currencies based on commodities.
Places like the Congo (where a F* ton of rare earth metals are mined-all our portable devices need that stuff to work) would have trading power in the currency markets/commodity markets- and no one would be inflating it. The profits from their commodities and currency exchanges would belong only to the Government- with no debt attached.
The Congo would have to buy their land back from the African Branch of the American Based Corporation currently mining it... but no one wants to talk about THAT.

Am I rambling to an empty room?

no im reading

I vote

But i dont know the answer to the other question. I havent been doing my homework lately
Ready to read more because i like this stuff

[LadyG]

This is kinda Off topic, but ...
Wanna see real journalism?

Vice.com : The Vice Guide to Travel!!
They go to...
The Congo (cited some of this in my previous post)
North Korea
Liberia(scary!!)

Anderson Cooper is a bitch next to these guys.

[deevergote]

I never said I didn't care, just that I haven't had a problem remaining blissfully ignorant.
Also, I'm participating in this discussion so I can monitor it, as that is my duty on this website. I trust you will delete it yourself if it gets out of hand, but I prefer to be a part of it as well. Perhaps I can even make an effort to steer it out of a bad direction before it gets far enough out of hand to require deletion.

Anyway, when discussing money and the economy, it's nearly impossible NOT to include the government in it. My own comments were an effort to bring other factors to light, such as the overall nature of this country's economy. Still, the only way to leave our traditional government COMPLETELY out of the discussion would be for all involved to assume and accept the existence of a "shadow government", where private bodies are the ones truly in control of the whole of this nation's finances... and that borders dangerously on conspiracy theory. Better to include all aspects, if you're going to look at any of them.




Commodity-based economy would be good, though many areas have finite commodities. What happens when the Congo mines all their resources? Suddenly they're piss-poor.
The same goes for the oil-producing nations (though they are essentially doing that anyway... oil is a very VERY large part of the national income for certain Middle Eastern countries.) Actually, the only commodities that are truly worth basing an economy on are renewable. Food would rank top there. Next would be service. Those things, of course, put the US in a pretty good position (though not better than China.)

The US currency system used to be based solely on gold. We had gold backing every coin and paper note exchanged. That had some power, as gold is pretty much universally recognized as having value. Therefore, a US dollar backed by a specific amount of gold is worth that specific amount of gold to anyone, anywhere in the world. Of course, inflation drove the need for more exchangeable money than we could back up with gold. We've been running on the "perceived value" of our money for ages now. Many countries are doing much the same. China took a big risk with it that could still come back to bite them in the ass if they're not careful! (anyway, staying away from China here...)



I'm still wondering what the best way to strengthen our economy would be. The "spend! spend! spend!" mentality makes sense, but considering we're now a big part of a global economy, and we outsource so much of the things we buy... how much of that spending will be funneling money right out of the country?
Even spending on services... go out for a nice steak dinner, and what do you get? Australian beef, German beer, condiments and side dishes made with ingredients grown in South America, with plates and utensils made in China, sitting in a booth that was also made in China. Kitchen equipment, kitchen utensils, office equipment, rugs... all likely made in China, Mexico, or wherever. The dishwasher, busboy, and at least one cook are likely non-permanent immigrants, saving the money they make here to take back home (where it's worth more.)
The server makes $2.13/hr, plus whatever you tip. The host makes $4/hr, plus whatever portion of the "tipshare" they get. The bartender probably makes the same as the server. The manager probably makes $35,000/yr, and any US-citizens in the kitchen probably make no more than $13/hr. Of course, you have all the US-citizens who provide the foreign-sourced things listed above, but their income is minimal, especially considering your specific patronage. Those few people, those few dollars, are all that are technically going "back into the economy". So even spending on services is siphoning money out of the country!

This isn't an argument to anything here... this is more of a musing on views I've heard elsewhere, that I'm sure are well known to most already.

[HondaB18]

Am I rambling to an empty room?

yes... those that would and could most likely wouldn't because they are familiar with your threads. just letting you know

i know nothing, school me. in your own word, none of those videos.

all i know is this



i bet you that you wouldn't be able to continue your thread without mentioning politics yourself

[BurtonRiderT6]

Do you know who represents you in congress?
Do you vote?

See you're bringing politics right back into it, Why? Because it's ridiculous to think any of this doesn't revolve around the politicians.

Anyway, when discussing money and the economy, it's nearly impossible NOT to include the government in it. My own comments were an effort to bring other factors to light, such as the overall nature of this country's economy. Still, the only way to leave our traditional government COMPLETELY out of the discussion would be for all involved to assume and accept the existence of a "shadow government", where private bodies are the ones truly in control of the whole of this nation's finances... and that borders dangerously on conspiracy theory. Better to include all aspects, if you're going to look at any of them.

I don't think that private bodies are in control but I do believe they have some very convincing friend in high political places to get pull in their favor. I mean seriously just look at the bailout. Automakers show up on their private jets asking for a handout. How about everyone gets "X" amount of money towards buying a new car instead of just handing money to the automakers? It would bail them out and get people with new cars that have may have a better fuel economy and emissions.

Commodity-based economy would be good, though many areas have finite commodities. What happens when the Congo mines all their resources? Suddenly they're piss-poor.
The same goes for the oil-producing nations (though they are essentially doing that anyway... oil is a very VERY large part of the national income for certain Middle Eastern countries.) Actually, the only commodities that are truly worth basing an economy on are renewable. Food would rank top there. Next would be service. Those things, of course, put the US in a pretty good position (though not better than China.)

Spot on here deev, as your supply of commodities begins to dwindle so does the faith of everyone else in believing you can back up your currency. Pretty much like the US right now with the more money than gold can back up mentality. Renewable is the only way this could happen.

I'm still wondering what the best way to strengthen our economy would be. The "spend! spend! spend!" mentality makes sense, but considering we're now a big part of a global economy, and we outsource so much of the things we buy... how much of that spending will be funneling money right out of the country?
Even spending on services... go out for a nice steak dinner, and what do you get? Australian beef, German beer, condiments and side dishes made with ingredients grown in South America, with plates and utensils made in China, sitting in a booth that was also made in China. Kitchen equipment, kitchen utensils, office equipment, rugs... all likely made in China, Mexico, or wherever. The dishwasher, busboy, and at least one cook are likely non-permanent immigrants, saving the money they make here to take back home (where it's worth more.)
The server makes $2.13/hr, plus whatever you tip. The host makes $4/hr, plus whatever portion of the "tipshare" they get. The bartender probably makes the same as the server. The manager probably makes $35,000/yr, and any US-citizens in the kitchen probably make no more than $13/hr. Of course, you have all the US-citizens who provide the foreign-sourced things listed above, but their income is minimal, especially considering your specific patronage. Those few people, those few dollars, are all that are technically going "back into the economy". So even spending on services is siphoning money out of the country!

I agree with the people have to spend but I also think this is where politics have to really come into play. They make the laws and set the taxes, I know what I say may not be a view point others want to hear but here we go:

-Increase tax on cigarettes even more (sorry smokers it's bad for your health)
-Increase the import taxes, no reason you should purchase a Ford built in Mexico or a Chevrolet built in Canada when you can buy a Toyota built in the USA.
-Income taxes shouldn't be tiered, how is it fair that a doctor that goes to school for 6-8 years and makes $150k+ a year should have to pay more in taxes than I do only making $50k+ a year because I was not dedicated enough to go to school.
-ObamaCare is a violation of your rights, this is the land of the free right? Don't force us to buy into your program, it should be our choice. Much like abortion, do I agree with it? Nope. Am I going to picket and belittle you as you walk in? Nope. Thats your choice and your right.
-Stop the overseas spending, I mean seriously lets continue building in the Middle East as we're fighting a war, really? Thats like trying to pitch a tent in a hurricane.
-Be done with this war, you've cut the two heads off the snakes (Sadam and Osama). Bring back the troops and let them help stimulate the economy. No matter how long you stay over there they will continue to have a new leader who hates the USA as much as the previous guy so give it a rest.

That is some of the things I would like to see our elected politicians change but, the only way any of that gets mentioned is if I were to run and well....... I know thats not happening.

Sorry if I veered off-topic but in reality everything I mentioned would help in repaying our debt without throwing it on the people. For those that think it is everyone's fault, be careful how you throw that around. I've paid or am still paying all my debts, to say it's my fault for using a credit card in which I pay off every month or for financing a house in which I've never been late or missed a payment is just stupid. Not everyone is to blame, those that bought a house knowing that in 3-5 years they would not be able to afford it due to signing an ARM is one of the big reasons we're here today.

[toycar]

Topic has gone a lot of different directions, but I just want to bring in a centralized point here.


The title is "Discussions on money(the fed and shiz)" and it seems that alot of people are bringing in points that are 4-5 steps away from the fed thinking that is the primary problem.


Yeah, people on top of corporate America are making all the money. Yeah, we outsource jobs because of operational costs/savings, yeah, cost of living in the US is way higher than most other places-yup-I agree with all of your guys' posts.



My original post is about the root of the issue though, which is a primary factor in every single situation you guys are bringing up.


Business loans might come from a bank-but the money itself is actually lended from the fed to the bank to give to the business in the first place.

Sure, after ww2 everyone bought houses and stacked credit cards. You are right. BUT, it was the FED handing out money like it was going out of style that allowed people to dig such a hole in the first place.

You know that old saying,"give 'em enough rope and they will hang themselves," Well in that scenario is it the responsibility of the person handing out the rope to make sure they dont give someone enough to hang themselves-or is the person that doesn't know better at fault for taking enough rope to hang themselves?

Is the person holding the rope in the first place to blame? I mean, if you are holding all the rope, isn't it up to you to make sure you dont give it to someone knowing they are just going to hang themselves? I mean, why would we want you to hold all the rope if you are not going to handle it in a responsible fashion?

So why are they giving people so much rope then?


Its the fed that gives the banks so much money to lend. Its the fed that makes our dollar worthless-which drives up overall costs for everyone. And since the fed has driven down the value of our dollar, the fed is to blame in part for out sourcing jobs. Just as much to blame as the corporate tax rate or the law that actually allows companies to do it or the tax breaks that they get for doing it. They are actually given incentives to out source jobs.


Every single example of what you guys are saying is the "real problem" I can relate back to the fed. Its about the scope of your guys' grype.

Think bigger than the idea that corporate people make bazillions of dollars. They wouldn't be after 10 billion if 1 million was worth what it was back in 1930. Corporations wouldn't need to turn multi-billion dollar profits if the dollar went farther which relates back to my point.


The middle class had a better shot at life 50 years ago when the dollar was stronger. Corporate salaries didn't climb into a standard 7 figure salary until the dollar was weak as fuck.




So-as the fed fucks up the overall value of our currency the numbers only get worse. This is also in part to blame for inflation. In some african countries where inflation and poor money management is about 30 years ahead of America they now have trillion dollar bills. Its a spiral, and Zimbabwe is just farther down the shitter than we are.

They print trillion dollar bills like we print hundred dollar bills. All because their currency is worthless.



My grype is not that the politicians play a role-fuck yeah they do. My grype to put it plain and simple is we do not get an opportunity to vote for a new head of the fed. We the people have NO say. The fed has a lot of power in this economy, and they shouldn't. They also enable the gov to spend without recourse by offering to print more money, make trillion dollar coins and manipulate funds like SSI to continue to help the gov spend their way into a corner.

If the fed raised prime rates to say 4% like it was back in 03, mortgages would jump back to 6-8% interest rates instead of the 3.75-4.5 they are offering now.

Who gets fucked on that deal?

People with variable rate credit cards-same thing. The fed is not a gov agency though, and shouldn't have the ability to effect the population in such a way. Some business, like farmers, have to borrow money every single year since they only get paid when they harvest their crops.

If the farmer pays a higher interest rate on his operational loan, how do you suppose he captures that loss? He charges more for his goods, and that cost trickles down to us at the grocery store. Again, the FED causing costs for us to rise without any authority or power to legally do so. However, it happens constantly.

At this point the gov owes so much money that things like social security really just might fail. There are trillions of dollars invested in gov bonds, and all of them could go unpaid when the bill comes due.

Lots of people are invested in the gov, even though they dont realize it. 401k plans, IRA's, lots of shit is rolled into gov bonds because until now they were the most secure way to invest.

Not lately though. We have to rob peter to pay paul in order to honor bonds. And when peter wants his money back, congress takes a vote to approve either printing more money or borrowing more money to pay it.

If congress cannot agree then bonds don't get paid.

Plain and simple. The fed should have never had the authority to do anything like this in the first place. The social security fund is private paid, and should be managed like a private fund. There are lots of private paid, public funds rolled into this mess too, its not just social security.

[LadyG]

Basically, No one wants to have the convo I made this thread for. (except toycar!)
You were right, Mike.

I haven't made a thread about a topic like this in a while- or participated in one. I thought for sure someone would want to talk with me about these things.
Teach me to assume, huh?
I post vid's because the are the jumping off point (for myself) to look for people who write/publish about this stuff.
Its also called citation- naming sources. I don't expect people to listen to a uneducated opinion that can't name their source.

Instead, its going to turn into a left vs right flame fest.
So, I'm closing it.

Thanks

[deevergote]

You can't close, only delete. If you would like me to close it, I will. However, I'd actually like to learn a thing or two, and all I can do is participate in the only way I know how. Apparently I don't know enough to have the conversation you want to have, but I quite honestly feel insulted that every time I make a post attempting to join in the discussion, I get followed by "well, nobody seems to want to have the conversation I want to have!"

Topic has gone a lot of different directions, but I just want to bring in a centralized point here.


The title is "Discussions on money(the fed and shiz)" and it seems that alot of people are bringing in points that are 4-5 steps away from the fed thinking that is the primary problem.


Yeah, people on top of corporate America are making all the money. Yeah, we outsource jobs because of operational costs/savings, yeah, cost of living in the US is way higher than most other places-yup-I agree with all of your guys' posts.



My original post is about the root of the issue though, which is a primary factor in every single situation you guys are bringing up.


Business loans might come from a bank-but the money itself is actually lended from the fed to the bank to give to the business in the first place.

Sure, after ww2 everyone bought houses and stacked credit cards. You are right. BUT, it was the FED handing out money like it was going out of style that allowed people to dig such a hole in the first place.

You know that old saying,"give 'em enough rope and they will hang themselves," Well in that scenario is it the responsibility of the person handing out the rope to make sure they dont give someone enough to hang themselves-or is the person that doesn't know better at fault for taking enough rope to hang themselves?

Is the person holding the rope in the first place to blame? I mean, if you are holding all the rope, isn't it up to you to make sure you dont give it to someone knowing they are just going to hang themselves? I mean, why would we want you to hold all the rope if you are not going to handle it in a responsible fashion?

So why are they giving people so much rope then?


Its the fed that gives the banks so much money to lend. Its the fed that makes our dollar worthless-which drives up overall costs for everyone. And since the fed has driven down the value of our dollar, the fed is to blame in part for out sourcing jobs. Just as much to blame as the corporate tax rate or the law that actually allows companies to do it or the tax breaks that they get for doing it. They are actually given incentives to out source jobs.


Every single example of what you guys are saying is the "real problem" I can relate back to the fed. Its about the scope of your guys' grype.

Think bigger than the idea that corporate people make bazillions of dollars. They wouldn't be after 10 billion if 1 million was worth what it was back in 1930. Corporations wouldn't need to turn multi-billion dollar profits if the dollar went farther which relates back to my point.


The middle class had a better shot at life 50 years ago when the dollar was stronger. Corporate salaries didn't climb into a standard 7 figure salary until the dollar was weak as fuck.




So-as the fed fucks up the overall value of our currency the numbers only get worse. This is also in part to blame for inflation. In some african countries where inflation and poor money management is about 30 years ahead of America they now have trillion dollar bills. Its a spiral, and Zimbabwe is just farther down the shitter than we are.

They print trillion dollar bills like we print hundred dollar bills. All because their currency is worthless.



My grype is not that the politicians play a role-fuck yeah they do. My grype to put it plain and simple is we do not get an opportunity to vote for a new head of the fed. We the people have NO say. The fed has a lot of power in this economy, and they shouldn't. They also enable the gov to spend without recourse by offering to print more money, make trillion dollar coins and manipulate funds like SSI to continue to help the gov spend their way into a corner.

If the fed raised prime rates to say 4% like it was back in 03, mortgages would jump back to 6-8% interest rates instead of the 3.75-4.5 they are offering now.

Who gets fucked on that deal?

People with variable rate credit cards-same thing. The fed is not a gov agency though, and shouldn't have the ability to effect the population in such a way. Some business, like farmers, have to borrow money every single year since they only get paid when they harvest their crops.

If the farmer pays a higher interest rate on his operational loan, how do you suppose he captures that loss? He charges more for his goods, and that cost trickles down to us at the grocery store. Again, the FED causing costs for us to rise without any authority or power to legally do so. However, it happens constantly.

At this point the gov owes so much money that things like social security really just might fail. There are trillions of dollars invested in gov bonds, and all of them could go unpaid when the bill comes due.

Lots of people are invested in the gov, even though they dont realize it. 401k plans, IRA's, lots of shit is rolled into gov bonds because until now they were the most secure way to invest.

Not lately though. We have to rob peter to pay paul in order to honor bonds. And when peter wants his money back, congress takes a vote to approve either printing more money or borrowing more money to pay it.

If congress cannot agree then bonds don't get paid.

Plain and simple. The fed should have never had the authority to do anything like this in the first place. The social security fund is private paid, and should be managed like a private fund. There are lots of private paid, public funds rolled into this mess too, its not just social security.

Thank you. You showed exactly where I strayed from the topic, and explained the situation quite clearly in a manner relevant to what I had just said. Now perhaps I have what I need to tie those things together.

Anyway, the inflation of our currency beyond the true value of it (in gold, in our case, I don't know about other countries) is indeed to be laid at the feet of the fed... but it's nothing new. Other countries have the exact same issue with the devaluation of their money. The Japanese Yen got VERY weak. One yen is worth so little, it can barely be exchanged for money in any other more powerful currency.
When the Japanese Yen and the American Dollar were first introduced, both were valued at 1.5g of gold.
The US didn't abandon the gold standard until 1971, so all that money they were giving out after WW2 was still backed by gold, it seems.

Inflation is inevitable, especially now that we've entered a world economy on a scale considerably larger than the world has ever seen.

[LadyG]

I'm not trying to be insulting Mike. I am trying to not get other people (or myself) banned.
I do not want to not veer off onto political tangents- and within the first page it nearly did. And I spent another page trying to get back on topic.

I also said in the first post that I was making available my sources, putting them up for others to view and make their own choices, perhaps returning to this thread with a question, an idea or point of view.

I am not going to type out the summation of what could possibly be hundreds of Docs, articles, biographies, web pages, ect that I have read- because I would not be as good at explaining some of these things, and misinformation is exactly what I am trying to combat.

If we can have a conversation- thats cool. If people are going to spend an entire page trying to goad me into a political fight- I'll delete it.
I was not trying to negate the roll of government, only highlight that monetary policy (right now) exists outside of the political theater.

My "Come at me, Bros" was not "Fight me about whether or not government has a roll in monetary policy"
It was "ask me your hard questions".

[LadyG]

Part of the problem is that the USD is the currency that all other currencies are tied to. The last doc I posted has a great animation that explains how they are all tied together and why.

Basically, They are all fiat currencies and the gold that Fed banks of other countries assume to be held in collateral- well each oz has more than one claim on it.
It is a worldwide ponzi scheme.
If a few counties demanded their bullion the whole ish would fall apart.
The awful thing about this is the actual gold is physically held in Fed vaults, and no one who has claim to it will ever be allowed to take delivery without conflict.

I really do wish I could type out, with due diligence, and explain all of this- but, I really need yall- if you are interested- to go through my sources for yourselves. It would take me hours to write all of this.

[Ralphie]

Monica I have no issues with you, but its become apparent that your not really teaching anything.

I haven't really seen any convo.

You shoot down anything anyone writes and post videos.

If you made this thread to teach others about our governing bodies, then you should have started with an intro that explained what each system entails.

I think that it is ridiculous to try to teach the group of people we have here about our systems as they should have learned about it in grade school, but a lot of people forget all to well about what they learn in school.

Myself included, of course.

To have this conversation, politics need to be included.....but to a point.

There should be NO TALK about the upcoming election or the two candidates running.

That has no real merit to this type of conversation.

Also there does not need to be a need to convince one person on which party or "side" is better.

Not that any of that was going on in here, just good to have ground rules.

I understand where you wanted this thread to go but I just don't think a lot of people give a shit anymore.

I included.

Since 18, I have voted , including local representatives.

For the most part, when I look out into the vast ocean that is our world, it appears my votes have been a waste.

I am unhappy with a lot of shit going on but at the same time, a lot of shit that is going on is NOT my generations fault and is happening now because of the poor decisions made by previous generations/voters.

So now I have to just float a long in this fucking cesspool and hope that one day I can recoup the loses that I WOULD have earned if shit was going good.

I REALLY hate to say it, but in my case, I'll be blissfully ignorant this election and for a long time until my faith in the system is restored.

Basically I feel that the people who are chose to run for the top job in this country are doing it for personal gain and NOT for the betterment of this country.

We don't have men like Truman and Roosevelt anymore.

It's a shame but it is what it is.

So much has passed by the wayside.

Morals and values.

This conversation ends the same way every time.

No matter how educated you are about this, the system is broken and it will be quite a while before it's fixed.

[LadyG]

Ralpie-
Had the convo been about the topic I would do more than post vids.

Its not your generations' fault? Ha, maybe not, but the shit will hit the fan in this decade- most likely.

There needs to be awareness of systems other than the one we have. Do I know exactly how that will play out in the big picture? No.
Even the people running the ish now have no idea how to handle what's coming.
Its never happened before.

But for everyone to remain "blissfully ignorant" is to play into the apathy that allowed a lot of this to happen in the first place. Now, the creation of the FED was in-fact, a secret endeavor of banking interests. But the subsequesnt actions (Gold seizure, removing the international ties to gold) were allowed because of the apathy of the previous generations- and also the lack of alternative info sources.
But the media was better at being journalists back then...

Basically, if you remain "blissfully ignorant", you are furthering the problems the previous generations put in place through their apathy.

I know not everyone is going to be able to DO anything- but that doesn't mean its ok to not understand the world you live in.
Especially, when it DOES directly effect YOU.