Trayvon Martin.

[deevergote]

Not to sound dense, but why not? People flash knives, bats, guns, etc all the time to scare people or to get them to back down. I would like to think that if a cop pulls his weapon on anyone, he means business and that person will stop.

This whole case is messed up. I just don't see the point in shooting someone when you were engaged in a fist fight. Granted, we don't know if Martin had a gun or not, but I'm sure that would be reported.

Guns are meant to kill, not frighten.

If someone pulled a gun to scare me, I would assume that they intended to kill me. I would react as if my life were in danger. If I had a gun of my own, I wouldn't hesitate to pull it and shoot them as quickly as I could. If I didn't have a gun, and they didn't pull the trigger instantly, I'd be on top of them, grappling for the weapon, and hitting them with everything I've got. I may very well end up being shot and killed anyway, even if that wasn't their intent. If I got the gun away from them, I would most certainly shoot them.

If you point a gun at me, you had better kill me.

My work puts me in a position to be shot at every day. I have yet to be shot at, or have a gun even drawn on me... but I'm prepared for it.

[toycar]

In any case, he was clearly working outside his abilities.

I don't care if he was fucking president of the neighborhood group, he was clearly not the right guy for the job because he couldn't follow a simple order.

No matter how you slice it up, he should have just left all alone and let the police handle it.....

IMO, the race card just makes it that much more worse because as usual, an innocent kid was profiled and again killed.

I don't really give a fuck about the details, It bothers me more that this kid was taken way to soon

I generally agree with this statement. However, without knowing how far away the kid was its hard to say how avoidable it really was. If the kid was like 100 yards away, I agree with you 100%. But, what if he was close enough that they could hear eachother talking, made eye contact, that kind of stuff.

If thats the case, I think the confrontation is a bit more understandable and I see where it could have gone either way. I mean, if the kid was mugging the guy from 10' away, of course he said something.

If he chased him down like across the area, then yeah, hes a dumbass and is 100% responsible for provoking the situation. Even if a fight ensued, whatever. If he chased the kid down thats different then if the kid was 10' away.

Im curious how the details play the situation out. Im sure we will hear about it all eventually.

he had no right to confront the guy and im sure in doing so made the kid nervous and he may have been trying to defend himself and wound up with a bullet in him.

I sort of disagree with this. In your home, yard or neighborhood I think you do have the right to approach random people that seem out of place. A simple "how's it going" and "what are you doing" in my opinion is very reasonable.

I do think that zimmerman was right in talking to the kid. Even if 911 said not to. You will never know how many problems you prevent, and approaching people and casually asking them what they are doing prevents problems all the time. Im sure with your background you understand what im saying.


I do think zimmerman could have provoked the kid to feel cornered too though, and that could've caused this issue to blow up.

That more touches on what you said about him not being the right guy for the job. If he approached martin different, maybe martin would have just given a "I went to get some skittles and a tea, my house is right there" kind of answer.


I do think the biggest fault here is how he approached the kid. In my opinion, he had a right to talk to him.


That should've been the end of it though. If he approached the kid in a way that didn't lead to confontation or making the kid feel alienated, none of this would've happened.

[deevergote]

From the reports I read, Zimmerman had already identified the kid as being suspicious, called 911, and then pursued. His comment about "these ****** always get away" certainly makes me think that at that time, Martin was fleeing. Perhaps the report was inaccurate, or my understanding of that situation is incorrect.

[s.green]

From the reports I read, Zimmerman had already identified the kid as being suspicious, called 911, and then pursued. His comment about "these ****** always get away" certainly makes me think that at that time, Martin was fleeing. Perhaps the report was inaccurate, or my understanding of that situation is incorrect.

Maybe Zimmerman lied and said he was running? When he stated he as coming towards him, I think that Martin was just walking in his direction, like he was about to pass his car. They did say it was raining, so he could have been running to get out of the rain. I just don't trust this Zimmerman guy only because he didn't follow orders. He could be lying about the self-defense just to cover himself. I think I'm bothered by the fact that this kid lost his life. I also wonder why no one stepped in or at least shouted to break it up.

[toycar]

So ive spent enough time advocated for a reasonable process and to let the law work this out.

Now, I want to illustrate how zimmerman could be an assassin, lol.

So, maybe zimmerman had his own theories about the kid showing up in the neighborhood(previously) and all the sudden the neighborhood is getting robbed.

Circle of "watchdogs" aka supertroopers sit around jerking eachother off, talking about being super cop and shit. After a few drinks they get the idea that they will fabricate a situation that allows someone to kill the kid, out of theory that he is involved in the recent problems. You know, take matters into their own hands kind of thing.

So, zimmerman calls and lays the ground work with his statements about martin being suspicious, having his hand in his waste band etc...


Zimmerman approaches the kid, kid turns around and say "why are you following me" and zimmerman takes the phone from him while saying "what are you doing" instigating the scuffle the GF describes hearing.


Once the phone is out of the kids hands and zimmerman confirms nobody is listening-BANG!

Zimmerman then hits himself a couple times and rolls around in the grass to indicate a scuffle happend in an attempt to make it "justified." Look, im just throwing shit out there.

Nobody knows the truth, but the race/guilty before due process attitude has got to stop.


The guy may have killed him in cold blood, premeditated and all. We dont know that at this point. It also could've been an avoidable issue, again, we do not know that factually as we dont have the specifics. As more information comes out, honestly its not looking so good for Mr Zimmerman. I think the "stand your ground" law allows for a loophole type scenario in situations like this. I dont agree with that. I do however think you should have the right to stand up for yourself though, regardless if you are at home or the grocery store. I think thats why the law was originally passed, and now its being taken out of context.

Interesting conversation though guys. Its interesting to hear your guys' opinions on the topic. Im glad we have established some parameters around the race issue and being innapropriate.

I agree 100% that the race side of this issue is being blown out of proportion.

[LadyG]

In civil terms, he was liable once he disregarded the instructions given to him by "the proper authorities".
So, regardless of how this case is argued in criminal court, the family can, and should, file a wrongful death suit.

[toycar]

In civil terms, he was liable once he disregarded the instructions given to him by "the proper authorities".
So, regardless of how this case is argued in criminal court, the family can, and should, file a wrongful death suit.

911 responder bares no authority.


I agree he disregarded a rational idea, to leave well enough alone. However, 911 people have no authority at all. They give instructions and dispatch help. They aren't even government employees in NE. They are a private party employer. Some telemarketing companies here have a branch that handles 911 calls for different parts of Omaha. I managed one of them about 10 years ago.


Im sure it varies from state to state, so I might be wrong about FL specifically though.


***Edit***

http://www.911dispatch.com/jobs/jobs.html


Link talks about getting a job as 911 dispatcher and how the comm centers(communication call centers) are filling a vaccuum in this particular job market. 10 yrs ago I managed a call center that did exactly this.

[s.green]

So ive spent enough time advocated for a reasonable process and to let the law work this out.

Now, I want to illustrate how zimmerman could be an assassin, lol.

So, maybe zimmerman had his own theories about the kid showing up in the neighborhood(previously) and all the sudden the neighborhood is getting robbed.

Circle of "watchdogs" aka supertroopers sit around jerking eachother off, talking about being super cop and shit. After a few drinks they get the idea that they will fabricate a situation that allows someone to kill the kid, out of theory that he is involved in the recent problems. You know, take matters into their own hands kind of thing.

So, zimmerman calls and lays the ground work with his statements about martin being suspicious, having his hand in his waste band etc...


Zimmerman approaches the kid, kid turns around and say "why are you following me" and zimmerman takes the phone from him while saying "what are you doing" instigating the scuffle the GF describes hearing.


Once the phone is out of the kids hands and zimmerman confirms nobody is listening-BANG!

Zimmerman then hits himself a couple times and rolls around in the grass to indicate a scuffle happend in an attempt to make it "justified." Look, im just throwing shit out there.

Nobody knows the truth, but the race/guilty before due process attitude has got to stop.


The guy may have killed him in cold blood, premeditated and all. We dont know that at this point. It also could've been an avoidable issue, again, we do not know that factually as we dont have the specifics. As more information comes out, honestly its not looking so good for Mr Zimmerman. I think the "stand your ground" law allows for a loophole type scenario in situations like this. I dont agree with that. I do however think you should have the right to stand up for yourself though, regardless if you are at home or the grocery store. I think thats why the law was originally passed, and now its being taken out of context.

Interesting conversation though guys. Its interesting to hear your guys' opinions on the topic. Im glad we have established some parameters around the race issue and being innapropriate.

I agree 100% that the race side of this issue is being blown out of proportion.

I thought about the fact that Zimmerman could have concocted the whole self-defense ordeal after he killed him. I would not be surprised if his thought process was 1)crap, I shot him and he's dead. 2) What do I do because they told me not to chase him and I did. 3) i'll claim self-defense, but I have to make it look like I was attacked. Sounds farfetched but it did cross my mind.
How many of us have done something and tried to cover it up or make it seem not as bad? This may be what we have here. I'm sure Zimmerman knows he's in the wrong, but he won't turn himself in. If he lied, of course he's got to stick with it. The kid probably was running because it was raining. Again, I don't think Martin was running to approach him in anyway, but was just running near him.

[Ralphie]

I generally agree with your whole post toycar, except being able to confront people.

In your yard and house, you certainly do have every right to confront anyone there who is unauthorized.

Out in public, again you have the right, but since your not on property you OWN, then said person ALSO has a right to be there regardless if they are doing something illegal etc.

If they are up to no good, you can confront them but you put your chance of being involved and the situation getting out of hand much higher.

That is what police are for.

I know everyones opinion is that they are useless and by the time they arrive said person will be gone etc...

well thats how life works....if the person is up to no good they will eventually get theirs...

but without proper training, equipment, and authority there is just NO good reason to step in, except to help or save someones life who is in immediate danger.


I don't think he concocted a plan to kill this kid.

I think some punk ass kids have been starting trouble and breaking in etc and this guy was looking to make an example/on edge/probably racist and had absolutely NO self control.

Sees this kid walking around....maybe the kid was looking for a friends house or was lost and that could easily look suspicious....

tried to approach him, and I bet you he was shouting things like "hey what you doing in here man" "this is a private community"

And he probably scared the kid who tried to flee...

911 said to back off and he chose to follow.....tried to apprehend....kid fought back on instinct...and he shot the kid....

Even if the kid got the upper hand and started to beat the shit out of the guy, he still didn't have reason to shoot him because you know he wasn't looking to kill the guy....just get him to leave him alone.


You know damn well if you were approached by some guy that was asking you all kinds of questions and then started to follow you, you would be ready to drop that dude real fucking fast....especially if you thought you had no where to go or were lost.

When people are cornered they tend to strike out without asking questions.......in this case i think it is fairly obvious who did what.

Thankfully I see people are talking about this all over.....too often this kind of story gets no attention because of the races involved.

A lot of innocent kids get killed all year and you don't hear shit about it.

Like Patrice O'Neal said, "you can tell how beautiful a white girl is by how long they would look for her if she wen't missing"

BWAHAHAHA.

[toycar]

I generally agree with your whole post toycar, except being able to confront people.

In your yard and house, you certainly do have every right to confront anyone there who is unauthorized.

Out in public, again you have the right, but since your not on property you OWN, then said person ALSO has a right to be there regardless if they are doing something illegal etc.

If they are up to no good, you can confront them but you put your chance of being involved and the situation getting out of hand much higher.

That is what police are for.

I know everyones opinion is that they are useless and by the time they arrive said person will be gone etc...

well thats how life works....if the person is up to no good they will eventually get theirs...

but without proper training, equipment, and authority there is just NO good reason to step in, except to help or save someones life who is in immediate danger.


I don't think he concocted a plan to kill this kid.

I think some punk ass kids have been starting trouble and breaking in etc and this guy was looking to make an example/on edge/probably racist and had absolutely NO self control.

Sees this kid walking around....maybe the kid was looking for a friends house or was lost and that could easily look suspicious....

tried to approach him, and I bet you he was shouting things like "hey what you doing in here man" "this is a private community"

And he probably scared the kid who tried to flee...

911 said to back off and he chose to follow.....tried to apprehend....kid fought back on instinct...and he shot the kid....

Even if the kid got the upper hand and started to beat the shit out of the guy, he still didn't have reason to shoot him because you know he wasn't looking to kill the guy....just get him to leave him alone.


You know damn well if you were approached by some guy that was asking you all kinds of questions and then started to follow you, you would be ready to drop that dude real fucking fast....especially if you thought you had no where to go or were lost.

When people are cornered they tend to strike out without asking questions.......in this case i think it is fairly obvious who did what.

Thankfully I see people are talking about this all over.....too often this kind of story gets no attention because of the races involved.

A lot of innocent kids get killed all year and you don't hear shit about it.

Like Patrice O'Neal said, "you can tell how beautiful a white girl is by how long they would look for her if she wen't missing"

BWAHAHAHA.

I completely, 100% percent agree. Very well said.

[LadyG]

Where I live, they are employees of the sheriff's office.

I'm coming at this from the civil side, assuming that he is never charged. (which is how it looks like it will go down, atm)
In a civil case, he will be seen as having ignored the dispatcher, and will-fully engaging Treyvon with the intent of having an altercation.

I believe, in more litigious places like Ca, this is how people get sued for trying to pull people from wrecked cars- and in the process create further injury.
It is a very similar concept.

[toycar]

Where I live, they are employees of the sheriff's office.

I'm coming at this from the civil side, assuming that he is never charged. (which is how it looks like it will go down, atm)
In a civil case, he will be seen as having ignored the dispatcher, and will-fully engaging Treyvon with the intent of having an altercation.

I believe, in more litigious places like Ca, this is how people get sued for trying to pull people from wrecked cars- and in the process create further injury.
It is a very similar concept.

From a civil perspective, I understand your point.

[Straight Success]

... and through all of this, he's still not arrested.

Why not?

[toycar]

On the news tonight they said the evidence at the scene supported zimmermans story.

They also said the kid approached him after he went back to his car to wait for police and that's when the confrontation happened.

Brian Williams on the nightly news was talking about it.

We will see what happens eh?

[deevergote]

I'm interested to see where it goes. Still, Zimmerman pursued against the instructions of the 911 operator, and in my mind, that makes him the aggressor. It will take quite a bit of strong evidence in his defense to convince me otherwise.