Trayvon Martin.

[Straight Success]

I completely understand your argument and your personal views. Shit, I even think the same way to an extent. I guess that comes with maturity. I have a dislike towards certain "immature adults" at my school. However, if they needed help, and I know they needed help to get out of a bind, I'd set my dislike aside. The reason is, they're are a person just like me. I may need help someday.

Now, in the 911 call, Zimmerman said "these ******** always get away!"

My interpretation of his voice and what he said was very negative to that specific type of individual. Now, if he had said criminal, burglar, thief, etc., then I may be able to look past the race card.

What's suspicious about a young man walking down the street talking on a cell phone (a head set at that I believe). Please enlighten me? I see this everyday, and I don't think it's suspicious activity. I didn't hear Zimmerman say "he's looking into people's house windows or car windows, or some other specific suspicious activity."

[deevergote]

Gated community, I assume Zimmerman thought a young guy in a hoodie didn't belong. Or a black guy. Who knows. I'm not saying it COULDN'T have been racially charged... just that there really isn't enough evidence to prove it.

How do we know Zimmerman isn't the type of person to call everyone "*****"? I've heard MANY black, white, and Asian people say that word. I hate hearing it from black people, but I think it sounds even dumber from someone else... but they say it.

Regardless, even if he meant it in the sense that everyone is assuming, does that mean he intended to kill Martin due to his race? Do we know for a fact that had Martin been of any other race, the same result would not have happened?

Race is inconsequential. Even if it was the driving factor, it is STILL inconsequential. What matters is Zimmerman killed another human being. His motives are far less important than his actions, and I feel his actions speak for themselves. "Self defense" doesn't apply when you went looking for the fight. Plain and simple. THAT is what this man should be convicted on, not his racist statement.

We can't keep making everything about race. By protecting our own, we're doing nothing but bolstering the walls that divide us.

[Straight Success]

I, as well as many other PEOPLE (No race involved. Look at all the names on the petition!) want to see him convicted of murder. I'm big on self defense if you have no other option. However, when one can walk away, and doesn't, he/she f'ed up in my book. Zimmerman, you f'ed up!

This is easily a debatable topic, as many of us on this board share similar and different experiences.

Remember, Mike, we live in the north where it is a little more civil. The south has been in the past and present (it's dying) known for having racial tension. I'm not even going to dig up articles from the past 5 years. I'll just say this fill in the blankism has got to stop; all forms of it. That's just how I feel.

[Straight Success]

Racial Update From Police Investigation!

[deevergote]

I hear nothing new in that report, other than being clearly bent on making this a racial issue. They even mentioned how Zimmerman said "I'm half Hispanic, and I'm not racist!" Like being any particular race can absolve you of being racist.

Aside from showing some possible incompetent choices made by the police department, that report sheds no more light on what actually happened.



Also, don't forget... if it's going to be a racial issue, it's between an Hispanic man and a black man... not some "good ol' boy" with a confederate flag bandanna around his shaved head.
Racism exists wherever you go, that's for sure. It's true it's stronger in some areas than others. But to reach for this to be a racial issue is the wrong thing to do. Whether or not Zimmerman killed Martin for his race, or just because he wanted to stop some "suspicious person" doesn't matter. He killed him, and that's that. Should his punishment be any more severe if he did what he did because Martin was black? I'm QUITE sure he didn't initiate the chase with the intention of killing Martin. He wouldn't have called the police, or drawn any attention to himself if that was the plan. It was something that happened in the moment... and regardless of why, it happened.

[Straight Success]

No matter which way one slices it, how one views it, or perceives it, IT did happen. That's very true.

I still think the way I think attributable to the facts, not the spin the media may have had on it. Zimmerman words, then actions, the cover up/lack of police procedure being followed in a homicide shows that they didn't care about Trayvon. Just another black man to them, or ****** as Zimmerman stated.

The way I see it, Zimmerman was at fault (I think we concur on this). Period!

[mr_naler]

Son of a bitch. As soon as I have a good story about how carrying a firearm, some dumb ass has to do this.

Anyways, here is my take on the entire situation.

I think the whole race thing is a plausibility, but not a major point. I am white, yet I get stopped questioned, on occasion by police for walking around my friend's neighborhood. So it isn't implausible that he could have been interested in the fact that someone, not some black one, was roaming the streets of his neighborhood. However, this is where I loose all sympathy for the shooter. Let's list his mistakes.

A: Pursuing someone while carrying a firearm.
B: Pursuing someone and trying to interrogate them.
C: Allowing a 17 year old child put him in a position to where he felt his life to be threatened.
D: Taking the responsibility of getting into a physical altercation with said child, while being armed.
E: Firing his weapon.

What he should have done? Difficult to say, but I will start with these few things.

A: Stayed in a vehicle, and at a safe distance from the child he suspected of mischievous behavior.
B: Asked questions, but only to try and get a more accurate description of him.
C: Let the police do their job!

This wasn't a situation that was life threatening in any way. Idiots like him are the reason firearm laws are so strict. If anyone has read my thread about the 2nd amendment, you will note that I am a huge supporter of carrying a firearm, but this is beyond that. It was the careless use of his weapon, that could have been prevented. At the very least he needs to be tried for manslaughter. He can claim self defense, but it was imperfect, so even if he was in fear for his life and the teenager initiated the altercation, he still did not handle the situation appropriately.

[s.green]

How do we know Zimmerman isn't the type of person to call everyone "*****"? I've heard MANY black, white, and Asian people say that word. I hate hearing it from black people, but I think it sounds even dumber from someone else... but they say it.

^Totally agree. I would always tell my brothers to stop calling each other that word because 1) it's wrong and 2) as black people we really can't get mad at other people using the word if we keep using it ourselves. I have never been called that to my face and I feel sorry for the person when it happens.

Zimmerman was in the wrong and should not have chased after the boy. He made the wrong choice and should be arrested until the investigation is over. I don't think Zimmerman shot him because he was black. He may have called the police for that reason, but I don't think that's why he shot him. There was no excuse to shoot him. Martin didn't have a weapon so it was an unfair fight. I guess Zimmerman thought he could take him, but couldn't. I just would like to know why he shot him. He could have fired off a warning shot or just pulled it out to threaten him, but I don't understand why he pulled the trigger?

[deevergote]

No matter which way one slices it, how one views it, or perceives it, IT did happen. That's very true.

I still think the way I think attributable to the facts, not the spin the media may have had on it. Zimmerman words, then actions, the cover up/lack of police procedure being followed in a homicide shows that they didn't care about Trayvon. Just another black man to them, or ****** as Zimmerman stated.

The way I see it, Zimmerman was at fault (I think we concur on this). Period!

I don't see a police coverup. That's conspiracy theory bullshit right there. "The man" doesn't care about black people. I wonder how many of the officers on the scene were black...
There was certainly a level of incompetence on the part of the police, sure. Hopefully not enough to result in Zimmerman not being charged. They screwed up, but I HIGHLY doubt that there's some big conspiracy against a 17 year old black kid.

Also, don't forget... the cops on the scene had only a fraction of the details we have, and they only got Zimmerman's side of the story.

^Totally agree. I would always tell my brothers to stop calling each other that word because 1) it's wrong and 2) as black people we really can't get mad at other people using the word if we keep using it ourselves. I have never been called that to my face and I feel sorry for the person when it happens.

Zimmerman was in the wrong and should not have chased after the boy. He made the wrong choice and should be arrested until the investigation is over. I don't think Zimmerman shot him because he was black. He may have called the police for that reason, but I don't think that's why he shot him. There was no excuse to shoot him. Martin didn't have a weapon so it was an unfair fight. I guess Zimmerman thought he could take him, but couldn't. I just would like to know why he shot him. He could have fired off a warning shot or just pulled it out to threaten him, but I don't understand why he pulled the trigger?

Pulling a gun just to threaten someone is a BAD idea. If you draw your weapon, do so with the intent of killing your target. No less.

[toycar]

First I want to point out that he did use innapropriate terms for describing this kid, they have not come out and said he used the N word or anything though.

They were talking about this on the today show. Matt suggested some people think he did use racist shit, he also suggested he said "fucking punks"

Anyways. Zimmerman isn't just claiming self defense. He is also protected by the "stand your ground" law, one that I really approve of.

On a side note, why should you have to back down like a bitch in the face of confrontation? People should respect people, and when they don't they deserve to be confronted. People do have a right to invoke conversation and speak their mind. Asking someone what they are doing in the area should not equate to racial profiling just because they are different races.

Anyways, nobody knows how the fight started, or what exactly happened. The only known issue is that he followed and confronted the kid. From there, nobody knows what happened except zimmerman was on his back, had a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head, and he shot martin.

Thats it. I'd like to know what "pushing" someone sounds like on the phone too. How does the GF know that martin didn't push zimmerman? Im not advocating for zimmerman, Im playing devils advocate here. People are on a witch hunt, for something that I think is argueable either way. This issue has the fire to be the next Rodney king type issue. Its a step back in the big picture for an inter-racial society.

I bet 50% of people would confront the kid, the other half would have waited for the PD.

And the idea that if the kid was white, this wouldn't have happened is ridiculoous. Just like the thought that if zimmerman was black he would be arrested already. Jesus christ, this is the language that fuels the race card in this issue.

Riddle me this batman, if there are witnesses, which the news has repeatedly confirmed, and there had been numerous 911 calls describing the situation from first hand accounts, why isnt zimmerman in jail with all of the "evidence" being provided by the community? Its not like hes denying shooting the kid. Obviously he was in a fight with someone, and numerous calls confirm an altercation. Its not like he just walked up and shot the kid dead.

I mentioned this earlier, but do you guys really think the PD is corrupt? If anything the "Stand your ground" law is flawed, but thats argueable at best. It is the law. He is allowed to use deadly force if he feels threatened, per the law. If you are on your back, getting punched in the face-you probably feel threatened. It clearly states that you may stand your ground anywhere you feel your entitled to be. This is his community, where he lives. The kid is a visitor. Not that the kid has any less right, its just not unrealistic to feel like maybe the kid was out of place. Its not like martin has lived there for years and everyone knows him.

Also, whats the deal with people being so charged that he confronted the kid in the first place? Hes 28 yrs old, his neighborhood has been having problems. At 28 I know I felt like a MAN. I wouldn't let some situation intimidate me at all. After a lot of thought, Im pretty sure I would've followed and confronted the kid. Some 17 yr kid that fits the description should be asked "hey what are you doing around here."

I dont understand whats so wrong about that. So what. Why couldn't the kid have just offered a simple "I went to 7-11 to get some skittles and an ice tea. My house is right over there."


Instead, the kid cops an attitude rather then just offering an honest response. Im not saying that alone caused all of this, but everyone wants to talk about how zimmerman could've defused the situation, so could martin. Im not saying its ok what happened, I just think with all of the reasonable minds reading this discussion, nobody see's what im saying. Reasonable doubt should mean something to you guys, and so should being innocent until proven guilty.

It honestly makes me feel like some of you have never had to confront someone, and solely relied on the police to resolve your personal confrontations. You have to stand up to people sometimes, and if my neighborhood had been getting robbed over and over again I know I would have talked to the kid too. I've been in similar situations before with a kid selling drugs in my neighborhood.


Only difference was I didnt approach him with a gun. I approached him after he sold someone a bag, and let him know whats up. I dont really believe in snitching if you haven't tried to be casual about it first. A general "Hey keep that shit out of here man, your making it too obvious" was good enough.

I know factually, that 8-9 people in my neighborhood would confront someone walking around looking out of place and I dont live in a gated community. Not like "WTF are you doing" with anger, more like "Hey hows it going-what are you up to?"

Also, if the neighborhood had been robbed over and over by young white kids, and there was a white kid walking down the street, I think he would've confronted that person just the same.


Its unfortunate that the demographics play out the way they do in this issue, because zimmerman probably would've asked and probably has asked people repeatedly what they are up to when they are walking around. Casual, confrontation, whatever. Im sure he has been "talking" to people to make sure they have a reason to be there-the entire time hes been in the "watch" program.

Thats what you do. Talk to people, it deters bad behavior when you confront them. In this situation, he probably assumed the kid had no right to be there. If martin would've been straight forward and gave an honest answer, I bet none of this would've happened and mr.zimmerman would still be asking people what they are up to in an attempt to deter bullshit, just like he probably always has.


Anyway, I realize I probably am coming across like Im fighting for zimmerman. Truth is, I have had this discussion a lot since it came up, and a lot of people are finding this guy guilty without considering anything other then hes racist and he killed him in cold blood.


And that is bullshit if you ask me.

[deevergote]

I'm against the race argument, because I don't feel it applies in the least. In fact, it's more likely to result in Zimmerman getting off if people try to approach it from that angle.

He was a neighborhood watch volunteer. Not an armed guard. It was not his duty to pursue, and he was instructed by the 911 operator NOT to pursue. That should have been the end of it.

From the moment Zimmerman pursued against the instructions of the 911 operator, it could be argued that he elected to use lethal force.




And I'm sorry... Martin was a fairly scrawny kid, from the pictures... and Zimmerman is a pretty big dude. You mean to tell me that a 28 year old man that felt fit enough to be on the neighborhood watch, fit enough to pursue a suspicious person, can't hold his own against an unarmed kid? If he can't subdue someone like that, he has no business pursuing... or even being on the watch, if that's what he believed it to entail.

It's not self defense, and he's not standing his ground, if he's pursuing the suspicious person. Self defense would be to take every effort to AVOID injury. The Stand Your Ground law would only apply if his duty as a watchman was to subdue the suspicious person. He wasn't defending his home or property, or any property that he was charged to defend. His duty was to watch and report suspicious activity.

[Ralphie]

I think if everyone would totally remove the race card and just look at it from one perspective it would be easier to understand.


So try that.

Take the race out of it completely.

However you need to do it, do it.

Pretend they're both white I don't care.

So now.

We have two men in a gated community.

One seems suspicious.

One is armed and is a watchdog.

The watchdog calls 911 and reports his findings. He is instructed to back off and await police presence.

He then attempts to either apprehend or stop the suspicious male.

Here is where things are iffy.

A fight may OR may not have broke out.

Either way after a few minutes police show up and one guy is dead.

So with the race taken out of it, it should be apparent that the watchdog is FAR from innocent.

Even if he was licensed and good to go for carrying a weapon and WAS defending himself because he felt threatned, IF


IF


IF

IF

he had backed off and let cops handle it, this poor kid might still be alive.

He was CLEARLY not up to no good....and i understand people being on edge and falling into the trap of profiling...i really do....ive worked alongside police and served in the military and even the best trained men can fall into that mindset.

In any case, he was clearly working outside his abilities.

I don't care if he was fucking president of the neighborhood group, he was clearly not the right guy for the job because he couldn't follow a simple order.

That weapon he was carrying was for SELF defense.....different then a Police officer who has sworn duties and can also use his weapon to protect someone else's safety etc.

No matter how you slice it up, he should have just left all alone and let the police handle it.....he had no right to confront the guy and im sure in doing so made the kid nervous and he may have been trying to defend himself and wound up with a bullet in him.

IMO, the race card just makes it that much more worse because as usual, an innocent kid was profiled and again killed.

I don't really give a fuck about the details, It bothers me more that this kid was taken way to soon because some fucking guy thought he was fucking John Wayne....and if you think im wrong then please by all means enlighten me.

[Ralphie]

And to be honest....no matter WHAT the outcome is of this, people will still profile and people will still find themselves in these situations.

No one wins here....a family loses a child and Zimmerman has to live the rest of his life knowing he killed an innocent kid.

Two familes worlds were just torn apart because some guy took it upon himself to play cop for the day.

No neighborhood group in the world gets the same training police officers do and there have been plenty of cases where police officers fucked up.....

His only job is to inform the authorities of suspicious activity/persons.

NEVER to confront anyone.


Here is a scenario where using his weapon WOULD have been 100% justified.

Zimmerman is out on foot patrol and stumbles upon a women being raped by a guy.

He calls 911 and then (with weapon holstered) tries to tackle the guy to hold him until police arrive(and also to help the women as someone is actively being hurt)

In an ensuing scuffle the rapist brandishes a weapon......zimmerman knows if he doesn't draw and fire that he will be killed....so he shoots.

Why is it 100%?

He called 911 first.

He obv can't stand and watch as this women is attacked.

He LEFT his weapon holstered since he doesn't fear for his life.

He attempted to stop the rape.

The guy turned on HIM.

He then feared for his life.

He had to stop the guy from doing any more harm and killing him.

The end.

Obv drawn out but that would be a good example.

When you confront someone at night for simply walking around and your armed it would make anyones hair raise up.

I guarentee you zimmerman wanted this kid to hang around until police showed up and he was like wtf who is this guy.

Tried to get away(which is ok because he wasn't doing anything illegal and zimmerman has no powers of arrest)

And the rest is history.

[s.green]

Pulling a gun just to threaten someone is a BAD idea. If you draw your weapon, do so with the intent of killing your target. No less.

Not to sound dense, but why not? People flash knives, bats, guns, etc all the time to scare people or to get them to back down. I would like to think that if a cop pulls his weapon on anyone, he means business and that person will stop.

This whole case is messed up. I just don't see the point in shooting someone when you were engaged in a fist fight. Granted, we don't know if Martin had a gun or not, but I'm sure that would be reported.

[deevergote]

It bothers me more that this kid was taken way to soon because some fucking guy thought he was fucking John Wayne