Trayvon Martin.

[Straight Success]

One should be able to paint a clear picture of events that happened from the first 911 call placed by Zimmerman.

[toycar]

Im not looking for the community to turn on me for saying this, so please read before you judge. I can tell already Im one of a few, if not the only seeing this from my perspective.

The article on CNN right now states that the GF was on the phone with martin, and she heard zimmerman ask why martin was walking, and martin ask zimmerman why he was following him. A scuffle insues, and the phone gets disconnected.


A couple people called 911 to report a fight, then shots are fired after someone screams for help. Zimmerman is the community "watchdog" by volunteer and has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. That means he has had extensive training/or at the least taken some classes and acquired a license legally to carry a weapon. Its obviously argueable that this guy has had adequate training to justify feeling threatened. Hes not just some jackass with a gun.

In the report today, it quotes the police report as the responding officer noticing zimmermans back being wet, he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head.

Quoted from CNN;

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

In a police report about the incident, Officer Timothy Smith says that when he arrived at the scene, there was a black male lying face down on the ground with his hands underneath his body. "I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results," the report says.

Speaking with Zimmerman, who had called 911, Smith observed that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

You put it all together and you get the idea that maybe zimmerman should'nt have followed the kid, but obviously a fight broke out and zimmerman may have been losing.


Random people confirm a fight, not a point blank shooting. So, maybe the martin kid was kicking his ass, and he shot him. Was he a dumbshit for following the kid in the first place, sure. But he had a right to do so by being a "watchdog" in a gated community. They had recently had several issues, and he was already on alert. He has the right to carry his gun. He had the right to defend his life, if he so felt it was threatened. He was volunteer neighborhood watch, and the captain at that. The police report indicates zimmerman was bloody and his back was wet apparently from being on his back, in the grass.


Also, why would he have just walked away? It his "job" as a volunteer to help protect the community. He confronted the kid, a fight broke out and he was on his back getting whoooped. And he was the "captain" of this volunteer group. So, as the captain, dont you feel an obligation to confront the issue?

I know I would. Win lose or draw, if someone was outside breaking into my car, I would confront them. The 911 operator would tell me not to, and I would anyways. Probably with a gun in my hand.


I would have shot the kid too if I was getting my ass handed to me and I happened to have a loaded gun on my hip. Now, Im not saying I would've followed the kid in this scenario, but still. More then likely, I would have. Gun on my hip, license to carry, on duty as "security" or whatever you want to call it. Its ludacris to think this guy didnt feel an obligation to confront the issue.

In my opinion, people are jumping the gun on the race card, the idea that this guy killed him in cold blood, and the notion that the kid aka "slim" was in fact a decent guy.

I cant wait for the voice analysis to come back and confirm it was zimmerman screaming for help. Then what? I bet all these "race" crazy ideas will be just the same. So what "you got beat down and had to kill the kid because hes black?"Thats whats next. That, and the corruption train. People will not be happy no matter what the outcome of this issue is.



Either way, its a damn shame that so many lives are effected by shit like this, and its even worse that RACE comes to question anytime something like this happens. Even though nobody in America, that is alive today ever suffered from slavery or owned a slave themselves. Blacks, hispanics and the like have the same rights as anyone else and have for a long time.

However, in a black community, black people are just as racist towards other races as anyone else where the problem is present. So are white, so are mexicans, so are people in general.

Its not a white problem. Its not a race specific problem. Its a people problem. Some random stupid people cannot seem to get over race issues.

Whether they feel profiled, like they get the short end of the stick or whatever. I was white, in a very black/mexican/asian school in Riverside CA. Ive never in my life experienced racism like I did back then. I got beat up plenty for being white.


I hate that the presumption is that racism is a one way street. People of every color are racist. Being racist has nothing to do with what ethnic background you come from. It has everything to do with decisions you make, and how you handle yourself.


Just because the "victim" is black, all the sudden its a race issue.

Bull shit if you ask me.

[Straight Success]

Im not looking for the community to turn on me for saying this, so please read before you judge. I can tell already Im one of a few, if not the only seeing this from my perspective.

The article on CNN right now states that the GF was on the phone with martin, and she heard zimmerman ask why martin was walking, and martin ask zimmerman why he was following him. A scuffle insues, and the phone gets disconnected.


A couple people called 911 to report a fight, then shots are fired after someone screams for help. Zimmerman is the community "watchdog" by volunteer and has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. That means he has had extensive training/or at the least taken some classes and acquired a license legally to carry a weapon. Its obviously argueable that this guy has had adequate training to justify feeling threatened. Hes not just some jackass with a gun.

In the report today, it quotes the police report as the responding officer noticing zimmermans back being wet, he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head.

Quoted from CNN;

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

In a police report about the incident, Officer Timothy Smith says that when he arrived at the scene, there was a black male lying face down on the ground with his hands underneath his body. "I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results," the report says.

Speaking with Zimmerman, who had called 911, Smith observed that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

You put it all together and you get the idea that maybe zimmerman should'nt have followed the kid, but obviously a fight broke out and zimmerman may have been losing.


Random people confirm a fight, not a point blank shooting. So, maybe the martin kid was kicking his ass, and he shot him. Was he a dumbshit for following the kid in the first place, sure. But he had a right to do so by being a "watchdog" in a gated community. They had recently had several issues, and he was already on alert. He has the right to carry his gun. He had the right to defend his life, if he so felt it was threatened. He was volunteer neighborhood watch, and the captain at that. The police report indicates zimmerman was bloody and his back was wet apparently from being on his back, in the grass.


Also, why would he have just walked away? It his "job" as a volunteer to help protect the community. He confronted the kid, a fight broke out and he was on his back getting whoooped. And he was the "captain" of this volunteer group. So, as the captain, dont you feel an obligation to confront the issue?

I know I would. Win lose or draw, if someone was outside breaking into my car, I would confront them. The 911 operator would tell me not to, and I would anyways. Probably with a gun in my hand.


I would have shot the kid too if I was getting my ass handed to me and I happened to have a loaded gun on my hip. This is called murder. Now, Im not saying I would've followed the kid in this scenario, but still. More then likely, I would have. Gun on my hip, license to carry, on duty as "security" or whatever you want to call it. Its ludacris to think this guy didnt feel an obligation to confront the issue.

In my opinion, people are jumping the gun on the race card, the idea that this guy killed him in cold blood, and the notion that the kid aka "slim" was in fact a decent guy.

I cant wait for the voice analysis to come back and confirm it was zimmerman screaming for help. Then what? I bet all these "race" crazy ideas will be just the same. So what "you got beat down and had to kill the kid because hes black?"Thats whats next. That, and the corruption train. People will not be happy no matter what the outcome of this issue is.



Either way, its a damn shame that so many lives are effected by shit like this, and its even worse that RACE comes to question anytime something like this happens. Even though nobody in America, that is alive today ever suffered from slavery or owned a slave themselves. Blacks, hispanics and the like have the same rights as anyone else and have for a long time.

However, in a black community, black people are just as racist towards other races as anyone else where the problem is present. So are white, so are mexicans, so are people in general.

Its not a white problem. Its not a race specific problem. Its a people problem. Some random stupid people cannot seem to get over race issues.

Whether they feel profiled, like they get the short end of the stick or whatever. I was white, in a very black/mexican/asian school in Riverside CA. Ive never in my life experienced racism like I did back then. I got beat up plenty for being white.


I hate that the presumption is that racism is a one way street. People of every color are racist. Being racist has nothing to do with what ethnic background you come from. It has everything to do with decisions you make, and how you handle yourself.


Just because the "victim" is black, all the sudden its a race issue.

Bull shit if you ask me.

Get to reading, and understand the laws (including community watch laws that Zimmerman clearly violated and wasn't a registered member in the national database) before you make your assumptions!

"... Zimmerman also blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous." "

"According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group -- another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident."

[ChIoVnIdCa]

Also, why would he have just walked away? It his "job" as a volunteer to help protect the community. He confronted the kid, a fight broke out and he was on his back getting whoooped. And he was the "captain" of this volunteer group. So, as the captain, dont you feel an obligation to confront the issue?

Just because the "victim" is black, all the sudden its a race issue.

Bull shit if you ask me.

The only reason he was a suspicious person was because he was black, walking in a gated community.. He was just walking, with no reason to confront, interrogate or even talk to....

Zimmerman is NOT white
The kid is black..

Even so... sounds like race had a little to do with it.

[toycar]

Thr right to carry a gun, when licensed supercedes any stupid shit that a community neighborhood watch agrees with or not. They have no legal venue for mediating anything.


The guy legally carried a gun.

And by the way, if you assault someone and they have a gun, and they shoot you, its not murder.

At the worst, its manslaughter. Murder must have intent and a motive.


This guys neighborhood has been targeted by young black men lately, and they have had several burglary and b&e related issues. The suspects, both black and young are built just like this kid.


I don't doubt zimmerman associated the known suspects, with a random black guy, however its not absurd that he asked the guy wtf he's doing in a gated community late at night.

Truth of all of this, is nobody knows how the fight started.

The facts are not all known.


What if the kid punched him, and a fight broke out? crazier shit has happened you know.


The guy shooting him, well if he was attacked and beat down then it makes sense why it happened. Florida laws do protect him if he felt threatened.



And the root of my point was.not about who's right and wrong its how charged this issue is and nobody but zimmerman and the dead guy know the truth


Look at how passionate people are about this topic.


And straight success is just like everyone I'm talking about. Obviously he's black, and feels biased towards the topic.

He is a great illustration of my point. He knows dick about the truth, but here he is passionately arguing that this is in fact murder.


Again, I can't wait to hear the voice analysis proves it was zimmerman.


How does anyone explain zimmerman getting beat on, the fight random citizens reported, or what the cop put in the report about zimmermans condition if the kid was.just gunned down in cold blood unprovoked.

[toycar]

Also, if you assault an armored truck driver with a gun, a security guard with a gun or a rentacop with a gun, and they shoot you, its not murder. Self defense is not outlined as eye for an eye.

If your life is threatened, in most states you are permitted to use lethal force to protect yourself.

This guy had a real reason to at the least approach and talk to the kid. That alone could've sparked the fight, which led to zimmerman getting beat up and Martin getting shot.


Nobody knows the specifics yet. Don't you guys think police would arrest zimmerman if they had reason to believe this was somehow premeditated or that zimmerman is a cold blooded killer like some of you are pegging him to be?

You guys think zimmerman has got juice like that, to bend over the pd and walk on a murder?

You think the pd is corrupt or something?




Yeah right.

Edit
New story shows 911 call dialogues.

Honestly, people tell the story going both ways. One guy days thr black did was on top, another says the guy in a t shirt.

Who knows.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20...-teen-is-shot/

[deevergote]

The fact that Zimmerman chased him may very well be enough to show intent, racially charged or not. The duty of the neighborhood watch is not to chase and capture suspicious people. It is merely to report suspicious activity to the police. The second he initiated the chase, Zimmerman became the aggressor. He intentionally chased Martin. He intentionally confronted him. His intent may not have been to kill him, or even get in a fight with him... but seriously, what intelligent person would think for even a second that chasing a "suspicious character" isn't going to result in some sort of violent confrontation?

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by chasing. If anything Martin was the one acting in self defense. HE was the one that was threatened, being chased by an unknown man (I assume neighborhood watch doesn't drive around in a marked vehicle with flashing lights on it...) Martin likely turned to confront his pursuer when he realized he wasn't going to get away.

The simple fact that the injuries to both parties were sustained at the location that marked the end of the chase shows that Zimmerman is the one responsible. He made the decision to pursue. Not pursuing, as instructed by the 911 operator, was indeed a viable option... making his claim of self defense useless. It's not self defense if you're the one that initiated the attack.

toycar, you say that the facts that he carries a weapon and is on the neighborhood watch suggest that he's received extensive training? That's not necessarily true.
The gun permit and concealed carry permit may be acquired easily enough in some states... often just with a written test, background check, and an expressed need for the concealment (or if it's an open carry, that is allowed in some states with no permit at all.) As for training associated with the neighborhood watch... that's usually minimal as well. The most training they get is to identify suspicious activity and call the authorities. He was not a police officer, nor a trained security guard. He was merely a private citizen volunteering for the watch... and apparently in his mind, a vigilante.

He entered into a confrontation with an unarmed boy, 11 years his junior. He did this against the advisement of law enforcement. He pursued the boy until it got violent (I have yet to see who started it, but apparently it got violent.) He used lethal force on an unarmed man to end a confrontation that he himself initiated.

I wouldn't say it's racially charged. I believe that's impossible to prove, unless Zimmerman admits it, or some irrefutable evidence is discovered. To claim that it's racial does more harm than good.
I would say that it was murder. Not premeditated, but I believe this was more than manslaughter. This wasn't an unavoidable fight. Zimmerman pursued and made it happen, knowing full well that he had a deadly weapon at his side.
Had Martin attacked him immediately upon seeing him that night, then perhaps such force would have been warranted. But chasing a man down to instigate a violent confrontation, and then shooting him? That's murder to a lesser degree.

[stewie]

not to stir shit up again, but this is a prime example why i dont think civilians should be allowed to carry a gun in public...block watch or not...you know what block watch is in my neighbourhood??? all the homeowners looking out for each other...if im in my kitchen and i look outside, and see a man acting suspicious...ill call the cops and then call my neighbour later to let em know what happened...

[toycar]

It's not like I don't see your guys' point.

He could have walked away, I agree with that.

I mentioned that I wasn't sure I would have pursued in this particular situation. Anyhow, as far as self defense vs murder vs manslaughter, I respectfully have to disagree.

I can say I'm very interested in how this plays out.

You would be surprised what is considered self defense when things get legal. Check this out, this happened last year and the court stuff was all over the news recently;
http://www.wowt.com/mobi?storyid=142095103



By definition I think "self defense" means different things to different people in different parts of the world.


As far as the training statement goes, I suppose I made an assumption that the classes I had to take to get my cc permit were pretty extensive/standard.

More then anything its the presumptive racial undertone that pissed me off. Some people ride that pony to a point of almost reverse racism. They alienate some people by blowing possible racial issue out of proportion.



On a side note, If due process finds this guy guilty, he deserves whatever he gets. If it finds him innocent, so be it.

Believe in the process though. That's what upsets me. People need to let the law get it figured out, and leave their feelings out of it if they cannot help but become personally, emotionally invested in the issue. It doesn't help anything and its no good for anyone.

And race issues blow out of control quick.

[deevergote]

not to stir shit up again, but this is a prime example why i dont think civilians should be allowed to carry a gun in public...block watch or not...you know what block watch is in my neighbourhood??? all the homeowners looking out for each other...if im in my kitchen and i look outside, and see a man acting suspicious...ill call the cops and then call my neighbour later to let em know what happened...

That's how it should be. Some areas have the citizens patrolling, but that's ALL it should be.

I do support a citizen's right to own and carry a weapon, but I think maybe we should have a greater degree of education involved with obtaining a permit to have a firearm outside of your own home.
Once you kill someone, there's no taking it back. It's SO easy to forget that in the heat of the moment, and when all you have to do is squeeze a trigger... one momentary lapse in judgment can cost one person their life, and cost you your freedom.

[Straight Success]

It's not like I don't see your guys' point.

He could have walked away, I agree with that.

I mentioned that I wasn't sure I would have pursued in this particular situation. Anyhow, as far as self defense vs murder vs manslaughter, I respectfully have to disagree.

I can say I'm very interested in how this plays out.

You would be surprised what is considered self defense when things get legal. Check this out, this happened last year and the court stuff was all over the news recently;
http://www.wowt.com/mobi?storyid=142095103



By definition I think "self defense" means different things to different people in different parts of the world.


As far as the training statement goes, I suppose I made an assumption that the classes I had to take to get my cc permit were pretty extensive/standard.

More then anything its the presumptive racial undertone that pissed me off. Some people ride that pony to a point of almost reverse racism. They alienate some people by blowing possible racial issue out of proportion.



On a side note, If due process finds this guy guilty, he deserves whatever he gets. If it finds him innocent, so be it.

Believe in the process though. That's what upsets me. People need to let the law get it figured out, and leave their feelings out of it if they cannot help but become personally, emotionally invested in the issue. It doesn't help anything and its no good for anyone.

And race issues blow out of control quick.

Florida Laws on Self Defense & Firearm.

[Straight Success]

The reason why the race card is being pulled is if the shooter was a black man, he would've been taken into custody immediately; at least that's what history has shown us.

I treat everyone equally, but I'm almost 100% sure that if it was a white kid walking down the street with skittles and iced tea, he would've drove by, and this story would never exist.

Trayvon, in this matter, as you can clearly hear in Zimmerman's 911 call, was indeed racially profiled. There's no way of cleaning that up!

I've had it happen to me, and I come from an interracial family. That edge right there has helped me evaluate many situations from both sides. It also has helped me treat everyone, and I mean everyone, that I encounter, equally!

[dj_ender]

It's not like I don't see your guys' point.

He could have walked away, I agree with that.

I mentioned that I wasn't sure I would have pursued in this particular situation. Anyhow, as far as self defense vs murder vs manslaughter, I respectfully have to disagree.

I can say I'm very interested in how this plays out.

You would be surprised what is considered self defense when things get legal. Check this out, this happened last year and the court stuff was all over the news recently;
http://www.wowt.com/mobi?storyid=142095103



By definition I think "self defense" means different things to different people in different parts of the world.


As far as the training statement goes, I suppose I made an assumption that the classes I had to take to get my cc permit were pretty extensive/standard.

More then anything its the presumptive racial undertone that pissed me off. Some people ride that pony to a point of almost reverse racism. They alienate some people by blowing possible racial issue out of proportion.



On a side note, If due process finds this guy guilty, he deserves whatever he gets. If it finds him innocent, so be it.

Believe in the process though. That's what upsets me. People need to let the law get it figured out, and leave their feelings out of it if they cannot help but become personally, emotionally invested in the issue. It doesn't help anything and its no good for anyone.

And race issues blow out of control quick.

Bullshit. Zimmermann followed Martin, against police orders, he CREATED the situation. Self defense doesn't apply when you are the pursuer/attacker. Had he listened, there would have never been a situation. He could have followed from afar and seen where Martin was going/what he was doing.

[Hopeless]

Florida Laws on Self Defense & Firearm.

Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;

copied straight from the fl.gov's self defense laws.

simple self defense is not an excuse to kill someone, and especially so if you initiate the confrontation.

getting into a simple fist fight/scuffle with a 17 year old kid, and walking out with a simple bloody nose and a sweaty back does not tell me he was in any situation where his life or bodily function were threatened.

i am all for gun owners and gun rights, i know a lot of people that carry concealed, , and i respect all of those people. some of them, my uncle and best friend, have used their weapon to diffuse criminal situations before. another friend of mine got attacked in a road rage situation with his gun on him and did not react by shooting the guy just because he got attacked.

its all opinions and i respect everyone elses, but to me the shooter is completely in the wrong.

[deevergote]

The reason why the race card is being pulled is if the shooter was a black man, he would've been taken into custody immediately; at least that's what history has shown us.

I treat everyone equally, but I'm almost 100% sure that if it was a white kid walking down the street with skittles and iced tea, he would've drove by, and this story would never exist.

Trayvon, in this matter, as you can clearly hear in Zimmerman's 911 call, was indeed racially profiled. There's no way of cleaning that up!

I've had it happen to me, and I come from an interracial family. That edge right there has helped me evaluate many situations from both sides. It also has helped me treat everyone, and I mean everyone, that I encounter, equally!

Zimmerman is Hispanic. Hispanics are very often discriminated against just as often as Black people. Maybe it's different in Florida, where there is a very large Hispanic population...

I think the fact that he was allowed to go free with his self defense claim was bullshit... but I don't believe it had anything to do with his race. That assertion is even more absurd than assuming Zimmerman's actions were racially charged.

Zimmerman may have had a dislike for black people. That may be 100% true. But saying that his feelings toward that race, and the fact that he shot and killed a black kid... that's reaching. You can dislike an entire group of people without actually having any desire to hurt them.

I find myself to have a dislike for people that dress in the "urban" fashion. Baggy pants hanging halfway down their thighs, oversized tshirts, sideways 50fifty caps... I work in many urban areas, and I see people like this every day... of all races. I don't like it. They annoy the piss out of me. The way they present themselves, the way most of them talk, the way they always seem to wander aimlessly out in front of my car as soon as I'm about to accelerate from a green light...
But when I have to interact with them? That dislike is gone. I see the individual, not the style. If someone like that was hurt on the side of the road? I'd stop and help.
I have a dislike for a general group of people, but I wish them no harm. Maybe that's just me... Maybe Zimmerman DOES truly hate black people, and maybe it WAS his goal to shoot and kill this kid just because he was black. It's possible... but I see nothing proving it.

If every crime committed between people of different races is to be called a hate crime, how are we ever going to start seeing each other as equals?