Whiney woman or faulty Honda quality?

[zmanwit90accord]

I think it's the former.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/woman-...084530815.html

Opinions?

[Tippey764]

I want to know how she was calculating the gas mileage.

[Straight Success]

With proper documentation on her behalf, I could see why she's upset. Not taking sides, but if you purchase something with the intentions of receiving "whatever" and you you only get "whatev'," you'd be pissed too.

I'm not big on lawsuits, but some people are. I guess it's people's way of trying to receive fair compensation.

[King James]

No, in general, its a persons way of making an easy buck without having to work for it.

[cb7rush]

i saw hwer on the news the other day and she had extremely good proof of shitty gas mileage. compared to what they said she was gona make. She did the math and calculated resale value, that for sure dropped a shitload.

I would have done the same thing if toyota promised the prius getting 85mpg and i get 40. It can happen to any car company, but honda did say it was making 50mpg and getting the 30 she is getting, thats a big difference.

[s2cmpugh]

i saw hwer on the news the other day and she had extremely good proof of shitty gas mileage. compared to what they said she was gona make. She did the math and calculated resale value, that for sure dropped a shitload.

I would have done the same thing if toyota promised the prius getting 85mpg and i get 40. It can happen to any car company, but honda did say it was making 50mpg and getting the 30 she is getting, thats a big difference.

Agreed! Not to mention, this lady is/was an attorney so she knows a little about law. I side with her on this. It would be one thing if she was a few MPG's short on 50, but she is way off. Let's put this into perspective, my 91 EX with 235k miles on it achieved 35mpg on my last highway trip and the car only cost me $2,000. From the law side of things, she bought the car based on expectations of mileage advertised by Honda. Honda failed to live up to their side of the agreement.

This isn't the first time I've heard about this issue from Honda, so I'd expect more people to start coming up. They key will be how Honda handles it and responds.

[HenRoc]

She's not going to be able to win. 'Deteriorating battery' that means something.

If it's the hybrid battery that would tell me that:

- She never really took care of the car. If you properly maintain a vehicle like your supposed too you'll get more out of it.

- Those hybrid batteries are NOT cheap, and just like the rest of the car they're designed to replaced at a certain mileage interval.

Company doesn't PROMISE a mileage..they give you a their estimated MPG (via EPA) that's plastered on the window sticker when you buy it.

I'd be surprised if she wins, it's all on how a consumer takes care of the damn car. I see so many cars that come in that most owners neglect..something simple as a trans fluid flush could prolong the life expectancy of a car or truck.

[cb7rush]

The 50mpg that Honda promised and didnt live up to will hold up in cmall claims court. She is going to win, trust me on this.

Honda has a settlement acknowledging that they made a mistake and they were going to settle this by giving people the option to opt out and Honda pays them $100 cash. Thats way too little considering that gas is about 4 bucks a gallon.

The cattery was deteriorating because something was faulty on the car itself. She is a high priced lawyer that can afford to take her car to the dealer to get serviced, im sure her routine maintenance was up to date.

[wed3k]

she should of just sold it and got something else. i don't see the problem.

[owequitit]

I think it's the former.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/woman-...084530815.html

Opinions?

She is a dumb idiot, and she will probably lose her ass in court. Of course, in the People's Republic of California, who knows what will happen.

The reason is very simple.

The EPA has a set procedure that is used to determine fuel mileage. Every single car sold in the US goes through the specified procedure, and the results are published on the window sticker for City, Highway and Combined mileage. It isn't like Honda is a rogue using its own testing procedure. Since the EPA can't physically test every single car due to manpower issues, the OEMs test the cars based on the specified EPA regimen, document the findings, submit the paperwork and then the EPA spot checks random production cars to make sure they are within the specified tolerance, as well as auditing the companies to make sure they aren't lying.

Not only is she an idiot because of that fact, but she is an even bigger idiot because the fact that the test results may vary in the real world is printed RIGHT ON THE FUCKING WINDOW STICKER, right where they have the published mileage. It also declares that mileage figures are based on the EPA's required testing regimen. If she spent more time engaging her brain and less time engaging her piss poor attitude and loud mouth, the world would be that much better. I hope she spends hundreds of thousands of dollars in court thinking she will win, and then gets her ass handed to her. It will be a good lesson in reality, which is clearly something she needs. Sorry, but if the lady isn't intelligent enough to read the fine print, then she deserves to be called an idiot. It is like all the numbnuts that complained about not realizing they bought a stupid mortgage 3 years ago because they were too complacent to read the terms and conditions that were printed right on their contract.

She is also dumb because the batteries are covered under warranty in the State of California for 150,000 miles (per state law, whereas most other states are only 100,000). If the batteries weren't working properly, and the car was performing poorly, she should have returned to the dealer for a warranty repair. Even the event that the mileage was completely out of warranty, Honda and Toyota have been goodwilling those packs for quite sometime, because a replacement between 100-150K is nearly 100% certain (only something like 4% of packs make it past 100K, and the # that go beyond 150K is miniscule) and the planned on that as part of the cost of selling the car. They are also required by the EPA to make sure those ecologically destructive battery packs get properly disposed of/recycled.

It is funny how she gave Honda an utlimatum and then got pissed when they didn't respond. They didn't respond because they know she doesn't have a case. She is probably silly for thinking A) she will 10K and B) everyone will follow her and cost Honda $2 billion. The guy from Pepperdyne doesn't have a clue what he is talking about because he very clearly has no idea what those MPG values are based on or where they come from.

It's more of the "The big EVIL corporations wronged me, when in reality I am stupid and ignorant and wronged myself" occupy la-la land bullshit.

Winning this case would probably be pretty straight forward, even if the lawyers are banned from the court.

1) Provide copy of window sticker with the disclaimers "Expected range for most drivers _____ to _____ MPG (in the case of my Si, the City number is 21 and the range is 17-25MPG). Right below that in the right hand corner is "YOUR ACTUAL MILEAGE WILL VARY, depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle."

See the FREE fuel economy guide at dealers or www.fueleconomy.gov

It is even quite likely that not only was a real range provided at that website for her car, by actual owners, but I assure that the website explains how fuel economy numbers are created and if not, directly, then it provides links to the EPA's testing regimen and describes required compliance on the part of the manufacturer.

That pretty much renders her blame of Honda gaming the system moot.

2) Find out the mileage on her car, and then determine whether or not it was A) under warranty and B) whether or not she actually took the time to have a repair under warranty conducted. If not, that would pretty much render her arguement for all associated costs for the lower MPG due to battery performance moot.

What is she left with? Nada.

[deevergote]

I didn't even read it, and I vote whiny woman.





Ok, I read it now. I wonder how the hell she's driving... I mean, 30mpg with a Civic Hybrid? I beat the living hell out of my Fit, and I average 36.5! I'm talking about full throttle accelerations, 4k highway cruising, heel-toe downshifts, high-rpm driving through mountains... all with about 150lbs of extra stuff (two full spares, etc...)

What I find to be upsetting is that she seems to be looking at this as a way to open the door for other idiot owners that want to sue. "it's a potential 2 billion dollar payout." Yeah, that's how you fix a problem... bankrupt the manufacturer of some of the most reliable cars on the road... all because she got her panties in a bunch.

If she did a little market research, she'd have seen that the Prius tends to beat the Civic hybrid (as well as the Insight) in just about every comparison anyway...

[owequitit]

The 50mpg that Honda promised and didnt live up to will hold up in cmall claims court. She is going to win, trust me on this.

Honda has a settlement acknowledging that they made a mistake and they were going to settle this by giving people the option to opt out and Honda pays them $100 cash. Thats way too little considering that gas is about 4 bucks a gallon.

The cattery was deteriorating because something was faulty on the car itself. She is a high priced lawyer that can afford to take her car to the dealer to get serviced, im sure her routine maintenance was up to date.

Unless she can document a fault, then she can't claim a fault. Batteries deteriorate with age, plain and simple. Driving style and environmental conditions have a lot to do with it as well. So does frequency of use, recharge/discharge rate and frequency etc.

Honda did the $200 per person primarily as a goodwill gesture toward those who were unhappy, just like how they have goodwilled a lot of the old tranny failures even though quite a few were actually not in warranty anymore.

Honda is not liable for the EPA's regulations, they are required to comply with them. Since the whole system of MPG values provided is EPA determined, defined and regulated, Honda is pretty much off the hook. Especially in light of the not-so-fine print right on the damn window sticker.

That is the problem with going to court. There is no 100% going to win, not even in small claims court.

P.S. She isn't a "high priced lawyer." She is a former lawyer who is no longer able to practice law. Could have been personal choice, but it also could have been because she was a poor lawyer.

[owequitit]

I didn't even read it, and I vote whiny woman.





Ok, I read it now. I wonder how the hell she's driving... I mean, 30mpg with a Civic Hybrid? I beat the living hell out of my Fit, and I average 36.5! I'm talking about full throttle accelerations, 4k highway cruising, heel-toe downshifts, high-rpm driving through mountains... all with about 150lbs of extra stuff (two full spares, etc...)

What I find to be upsetting is that she seems to be looking at this as a way to open the door for other idiot owners that want to sue. "it's a potential 2 billion dollar payout." Yeah, that's how you fix a problem... bankrupt the manufacturer of some of the most reliable cars on the road... all because she got her panties in a bunch.

If she did a little market research, she'd have seen that the Prius tends to beat the Civic hybrid (as well as the Insight) in just about every comparison anyway...

Shit, I get better than 30MPG in my Si with fairly frequent enthusiastic driving, VTECing and lower gearing, not to mention additonal, weight, more drag, bigger tires etc.

[deevergote]

Are the estimated MPG figures on the sticker determined by the manufacturer, or are they independent figures? If they're independent, then Honda has nothing to do with it... and she would have to prove that the Civic Hybrid CONSISTENTLY gets lower MPG than the car that was tested to get those numbers.


I remember when the newest Insight came out. Honda's website had a little interactive video thing that showed the difference between aggressive driving and conservative driving. The dude with the lead foot got considerably lower MPG than the chick with the light touch.
The Civic Hybrid is heavier than a regular Civic, due to the hybrid bits. The gasoline engine in it is smaller than the engine in my Fit (making 93hp), yet the car weighs almost 300lbs more. Driven aggressively, that little engine will have to work quite hard to keep that car moving. All that work takes fuel.

[owequitit]

Are the estimated MPG figures on the sticker determined by the manufacturer, or are they independent figures? If they're independent, then Honda has nothing to do with it... and she would have to prove that the Civic Hybrid CONSISTENTLY gets lower MPG than the car that was tested to get those numbers.


I remember when the newest Insight came out. Honda's website had a little interactive video thing that showed the difference between aggressive driving and conservative driving. The dude with the lead foot got considerably lower MPG than the chick with the light touch.
The Civic Hybrid is heavier than a regular Civic, due to the hybrid bits. The gasoline engine in it is smaller than the engine in my Fit (making 93hp), yet the car weighs almost 300lbs more. Driven aggressively, that little engine will have to work quite hard to keep that car moving. All that work takes fuel.

No Deev, actually the Civic Hybrid is about 75 lbs less than the Si sedan. They hybrid comes in around 2875 (about 300 more than your car), but the Si sedan is just about right at 2950. The Hybrid has IMA (which actually only accounts for about 85-90lbs in that application, including all hardware, batteries etc), while the Si has much heavier wheels, a heavier engine, a tranny that is probably about the same as the CVT with IMA, larger heavier exhaust, bigger brakes, etc. The Si sedan is actually the heaviest Civic, and like I said, I get 30MPG highway without breaking a sweat.

And no, they are not independent. Honda has a lab built to EPA specifications which is used to follow the EPA's prescribed testing regimen. And it isn't a rough regimen. It is extremely precise and extremely specific. Car and Driver did an article about it a ways back, but here it is straight from the horses mouth:

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

The EPA does not have the manpower to test every single model and configuration car. The OEM's are responsible for testing the cars using the EPA's procedure, submitting the results to the EPA, who then approves the results for publishing, which allows them to be printed on the sticker. The EPA then randomly selects verification subjects from the production line, and tests them in a government lab to make sure the cars are delivering as promised. The OEM's don't really cheat the test because that would involve huge penalties. What you ARE seeing more and more of is the OEM's optimizing a car to do well on the EPA test regimen, to the detriment of real world MPG. GM is the most notorious offender, which is why you see incredulously high MPG sticker values, and then incredulously low real world values. They optimize things like the shift programming of the transmission etc. to maximize EPA results so that it looks good on paper. They know that many people don't care or check, and will just assume every car does as poorly as theirs does in the real world. Shortsighted, but true. Look at the results for some of their crossover SUV's if you don't believe me.

The other big variable specifically related to hybrids is that the published range on the sticker is much wider because they are much more sensitive to driving style habits. In any case, in order to get maximum MPG out of pretty much any hybrid, you have to drive the things like damn rolling roadblocks, and you have to absolutely drive with energy conservation in mind. If she got into the car and drove it the way she had driven her manual transmission old Honda's she certainly would have killed her mileage through technique alone. In fact, the EPA had to specifically revise their hybrid testing procedures because the Prius wasn't doing anywhere near its advertised value (1st and 2nd gen). Ironically, Honda's were actually outperforming theirs, but the new test drove the advertised ratings on cars like the original Insight down.

It should also be noted that the EPA test in pretty much no way resembles anything even approaching a real driving scenario. Top speed is like 55-60MPH and the acceleration times used are just horrendously slow. It also penalizes technologies like stop/start, because it doesn't emphasize idling enough to show the benefit of such technology in the real world, thus the OEM's have been reluctant to include it in cars, even though it can have a ~10% improvement in real world results. As is the case with any sort of draconian legislation, it hinders the actual benefit of progress for the purpose of performing well in a paperwork ritual. Since CAFE is the holy grail that the companies must measure up in order to avoid huge levies, and since the CAFE score is a derivation of the EPA MPG scores, then the OEMs WILL focus on EPA MPG to the detriment of the consumer because that is how the law is written. Yet another way our current "for the environment" and "for the little people" administration has completely and utterly failed us.