59 shots to kill one man?

[fatboy1185]

People in position of authority scare me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32478013...e_and_courts//

[Shag Wagon]

You know you think maybe 2 shots would have done the trick but damn! 59 shots is excessive! I feel a lawsuit coming!

[Pandemic]

Tennessee cops shoot 59 rounds to kill one man
Civil rights leaders worried race played a role in death of suicidal neighbor

Alonzo Heyward is shown in this undated family photo provided by James Marine. The fatal shooting of Heyward, 32, by Chattanooga police as he was carrying a rifle and threatening suicide has raised questions of possible excessive force.

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. - Alonzo Heyward carried a rifle around his low-rent Chattanooga neighborhood one day last month, ranting about suicide and ignoring the pleas of friends for hours before six city police officers surrounded him on his front porch and decided it had to end.

His father says Heyward told the officers, "I'm not out here to hurt anybody."

But police, who tried unsuccessfully to disarm Heyward, fired 59 rounds to kill him on July 18. The medical examiner found 43 bullet wounds in his chest, face, arms, hands, legs, buttocks and groin. Police contend Heyward was a danger to others and threatened the six officers.

Chattanooga police spokeswoman Jerri Weary described the case as "suicide by cop."

Civil rights leaders concerned
As questions continue to surround the shooting, Heyward's family and civil rights leaders take issue with the police response. Heyward, a 32-year-old moving company employee, was black. The six officers are white. They were temporarily placed on administrative leave but have since returned to work.

"We have a large concern about the amount of shots fired," said Valoria Armstrong, president of the Chattanooga branch of the NAACP.

A Chattanooga Times Free Press editorial cartoon asked "IS THIS EXCESSIVE FORCE?" — spelling out the question with letters labeling the wounds in a drawing based on Heyward's autopsy report.

His father, James Marine, 61, does not believe Heyward really wanted to kill himself or that he was trying to commit "suicide by cop."

"He just needed somebody to talk to," Marine said. "I believe he was just depressed at that time."

A Tennessee Bureau of Investigation inquiry is ongoing. Federal and local authorities are awaiting the TBI report before they do their own examinations of the case. Hamilton County District Attorney Bill Cox said he wants to see the TBI report before deciding whether to pursue a criminal case.

Police: There's 'no magic number'
Police spokeswoman Weary said the officers confronted Heyward when they responded to a report of three men wrestling over a gun in the street just after 4 a.m.

Heyward's father said there was never any wrestling over the .44 Magnum rifle that his son was carrying and sometimes pointing at his chin.

Police said the officers tried but failed to disarm Heyward with a stun gun. Weary said Heyward ignored repeated commands to drop the rifle and officers fired when they felt threatened by the way he moved it.

Police accounts and a patrol car video indicate the shots were fired in three volleys, all within 30 seconds. Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol. Some officers emptied their magazines, reloaded and fired again, while others didn't fire all their bullets, Weary said.

Some of the gunshots ripped through the unoccupied front room of the house Heyward was renting from his employer, the owner of a local moving company. No one else was injured.

Eugene O'Donnell, a former policeman and prosecutor who is now a professor of police studies at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City, said there is "no magic number" when it comes to officers firing at a suspect.

If death is believed to be imminent "there isn't anybody in the country who can tell the cops 10 shots and no more," O'Donnell said.

"Unfortunately this is replicated all over the country. When you send the police they bring deadly force with them. They come armed and they come predisposed to use force," O'Donnell said.

Heyward's police record
According to court records, Heyward had been charged three times in the past with domestic assault. The first two were dismissed. The third, from a January 2008 incident, remained pending at the time of his death.

He was sentenced in 2005 to 11 months, 29 days in the county workhouse for passing worthless checks, but the sentence was suspended for good behavior and he was given probation.

He also had a few driving-related charges on his record, including a violation of the auto registration law for which he received a 30-day suspended sentence in 1997.

The morning he died, Heyward was distraught after returning from a party where he had been drinking, his father said.

"He didn't think anybody cared about him," Marine said.

Heyward also was upset about not seeing his children — a daughter and two sons — according to brother James Heyward.


Police told Heyward was drunk
The video shows that police were told Heyward was drunk and talking about killing himself before they started shooting.

Chattanooga police officers get two to four hours of training annually on dealing with people who are mentally ill or under the influence of drugs or narcotics. But Weary said the training could not be applied in this case because the situation was too fluid and unfolded too quickly.

Weary wouldn't say whether Heyward had a history of mental health problems, citing the ongoing investigation. Marine said his son had no history of mental illness.

Amanda Counts, Heyward's girlfriend, and neighbor Darrell Turner said they witnessed the shooting. They said Heyward was lying on the porch on top of the rifle when officers opened fire.

"Before the first shot was fired he was down," Counts said. "Not one time did he threaten anyone."

'Why are you shooting me?'
Citing the ongoing investigation, police declined to answer questions about Heyward's position when officers started shooting.

Counts and Turner both said that during the first brief interruption in the barrage of police gunshots, they heard Heyward ask, "Why are you shooting me?"

That cannot be heard in the recording provided by police.

Police Chief Freeman Cooper this month told Chattanooga radio station WGOW the simultaneous shooting by all six officers shows they acted properly.

"We are saying that our people did what we trained them to do," the chief said.
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Hmm, lets see. The guy was armed with a (apparently) .44 mag rifle. The perp is suicidal which only makes matters worse. Six officers fire 59 rounds at him. Do the math and that comes to about 10 rounds per officer of which 16 miss. No, 59 rounds is not too many when there are 6 officers involved.

This BS about the cops using excessive force is nonsense. When you're faced with a guy with a gun and you're threatened, you shoot till the threat is no longer a threat.

Race is hardly an issue. This guy (with the rifle) SHOULD NOT have even had the rifle. Domestic Assault usually means no more guns. This depends, of course, by state.

This is another tragic event but the officers did nothing wrong, plain and simple. They reacted as the situation unfolded.

[Pandemic]

You know you think maybe 2 shots would have done the trick but damn! 59 shots is excessive! I feel a lawsuit coming!

Of course there's a lawsuit coming. Nobody wants to claim responsibility for their actions anymore.

[Shadow1]

This is another tragic event but the officers did nothing wrong, plain and simple. They reacted as the situation unfolded.

yes. the officers in the wrong EVERY way shape and form. it takes one shot to take someone down if placed properly. if they were trained like their commanding officer says they were, they should be able to aim. someone should have shot the guys arms that was holding the gun and another or the same cop to shoot the guy in the leg to put him down. period.


59 shots IS EXCESSIVE FORCE!!! it doesnt take that many to take out a human. if you have to RELOAD your gun AFTER the suspect was down, you are shooting for fun or out of hate.


sure i believe that they have the right to use their gun and fire if the suspect poses a threat to everyone around them and the officers. but 59 shots? how the **** do you think thatits NOT excessive? if it was done over a course of time(like 2 hour stand off and the cops dont know how to aim) and NONE of the shots but like 2 hit him then thats understandable. but 59 SHOTS!?!?!!? seriously. and makes it worse because some even CHANGED CLIPS and started firing AGAIN!!!

ill let you think for a moment. maybe you havent had your coffee yet and you just said that out of stupidity and your just waking up...

[Pandemic]

yes. the officers in the wrong EVERY way shape and form. it takes one shot to take someone down if placed properly. if they were trained like their commanding officer says they were, they should be able to aim. someone should have shot the guys arms that was holding the gun and another or the same cop to shoot the guy in the leg to put him down. period.

One shot? There have been many recorded incidents where a victim SHOT IN THE HEAD has lived. Do you know how close they were to this guy they shot? Didn't think so. You claim I said something out of stupidity yet you mention shooting the perp in the arm. You clearly know NOTHING about using a firearm for self defense. A gun is not a less than lethal weapon. When you unholster a weapon you shoot to kill. You DO NOT shoot to disable. Period. Police, soldiers, and even snipers are trained to shoot center mass. In a life and death situation you get tunnel vision and your fine motor skills are reduced to nothing.

59 shots IS EXCESSIVE FORCE!!! it doesnt take that many to take out a human. if you have to RELOAD your gun AFTER the suspect was down, you are shooting for fun or out of hate.

The guy was reported to be laying down prior to the cops opening fire. How exactly do you determine if a suspect is down if he was laying down already? The shoot out took thirty seconds. The words 'fun' and 'hate' have not even entered your brain at that point. Plus, keep in mind, there were SIX cops. Let's do the math together - 59 is close to 60. 60/6 = 10. 10 rounds each is VERY doable in thirty seconds. When you fire out of self defense, you fire till the threat is eliminated. A prone target is very hard to hit and once you do hit it there is no real sign of it. In addition, it took place very early in the morning where visibility was probably questionable at best.


sure i believe that they have the right to use their gun and fire if the suspect poses a threat to everyone around them and the officers. but 59 shots? how the **** do you think thatits NOT excessive? if it was done over a course of time(like 2 hour stand off and the cops dont know how to aim) and NONE of the shots but like 2 hit him then thats understandable. but 59 SHOTS!?!?!!? seriously. and makes it worse because some even CHANGED CLIPS and started firing AGAIN!!!

I see. So you support officers using their guns in self defense but you want them to fire a single shot. So, if the public and the officer is in danger you want him to, what, take one shot and wait for a response? Maybe the officer should shoot once and then invite the perp out for a drink? Oh, you said if the shootout lasted for two hours then 59 shots would be OK. So, 60 rounds in two hours... 1 shot every two minutes. I know, let's put timers on the cops guns. No, the cop shot until they felt the threat was over. What exactly is the problem with that?

ill let you think for a moment. maybe you havent had your coffee yet and you just said that out of stupidity and your just waking up...

I have thought about it. You have not. This was not racially motivated.

[4U2H8ME]

That's nothing new for us New Yorkers. Back in June of 2000 cops here shot a guy(Amadou Diallo) 41 times at the entrance to his building, while trying to get his wallet out of his back pocket. Now here's the thing, not 1 cop was charged with over excessive use of force.

[Pandemic]

That's nothing new for us New Yorkers. Back in June of 2000 cops here shot a guy(Amadou Diallo) 41 times at the entrance to his building, while trying to get his wallet out of his back pocket. Now here's the thing, not 1 cop was charged with over excessive use of force.

I remember that. That was a questionable shooting at best. It was the guys wedding day too.

I would hardly say 'it's nothing new' if you're using a case from 9 years ago as a reference.

[Shadow1]

a gun is lethal by only the user. not the gun itself. you shoot yourself in the arm, are you going to die? if you get shot in the hand, you going to die? no. "guns dont kill people. stupid motha******s with guns kill people." if i had a gun, i own it for protection. even if i were a cop, shooting to kill would only be an option if the lifes in the area are threatened. the guy was trying to commit suicide. not kill a cop.

visibility was questionable? questionable my left butt cheek. they have cars with headlights and flashlights that shine out to yingyang. if they were TRAINED right then that means they'd light the target up with lights to make sure they could see the suspect. no cop would go into any dark area without light. and i know how hard it is to shoot a prone target. doesnt mean it cant be hit. and im sure if the guy was hit by a bullet, he'd make some sort of movement showing he did.

and no matter what math you do, the number 59 is too many bullets to be fired to bring down a suspect.

"Police accounts and a patrol car video indicate the shots were fired in three volleys, all within 30 seconds. Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol. Some officers emptied their magazines, reloaded and fired again, while others didn't fire all their bullets, Weary said."

the main thing is the cops RELOADED and then started firing again.

"Police said the officers tried but failed to disarm Heyward with a stun gun. Weary said Heyward ignored repeated commands to drop the rifle and officers fired when they felt threatened by the way he moved it."

now im all for them firing because he was moving the gun in a threatening way. take him down. make sure he doesnt harm anyone or himself. 20 shots ok. if their so called "training" was good then they should have been able to hit him and kill him. i know about aim. i know about accuracy. and with a gun and TRAINING you should be able to hit a prone target. but 59 is too many.

thats like me shooting a guy with a gun coming at me with a gun. then once he's on the ground shooting him 20 more times because i saw his body twitching so he's still a threat to me.

[jimmybean21]

59 shots for one person who was apparently laying on the porch on top of the rifle that's more the excessive force. im not the smartest person but i don't think it takes the 43 shots that did hit him to take him down. black, white, asian, mexican, whatever race that's a bit ridiculous to me.

[Shadow1]

59 shots for one person who was apparently laying on the porch on top of the rifle that's more the excessive force. im not the smartest person but i don't think it takes the 43 shots that did hit him to take him down. black, white, asian, mexican, whatever race that's a bit ridiculous to me.

exactly my point. i can care less about the race. and when i said it was being done for either fun or hate, i didnt mean racially. i meant some cops like firing off their gun.

[4U2H8ME]

I remember that. That was a questionable shooting at best. It was the guys wedding day too.

I would hardly say 'it's nothing new' if you're using a case from 9 years ago as a reference.

Well there having been others, just that, this particular case had the most pubilicity. How about the Sean Bell case 2 years ago. He was killed and his buddies were shot the night of his bachelor party on the eve of his wedding day. About 5 cops emptied their clips, and reloaded and emptied those clips into their car, because a cop thought he saw a gun in the car. A gun was never found.

[Pandemic]

a gun is lethal by only the user. not the gun itself. you shoot yourself in the arm, are you going to die? if you get shot in the hand, you going to die? no. "guns dont kill people. stupid motha******s with guns kill people." if i had a gun, i own it for protection. even if i were a cop, shooting to kill would only be an option if the lifes in the area are threatened. the guy was trying to commit suicide. not kill a cop.

If he was disturbed enough to want to kill himself what's stopping him from trying to take a cop with him?
" gun is lethal by only the user. not the gun itself. you shoot yourself in the arm, are you going to die? if you get shot in the hand, you going to die? no. "guns dont kill people. stupid motha******s with guns kill people."" - I have no idea what you're talking about there.


visibility was questionable? questionable my left butt cheek. they have cars with headlights and flashlights that shine out to yingyang. if they were TRAINED right then that means they'd light the target up with lights to make sure they could see the suspect. no cop would go into any dark area without light. and i know how hard it is to shoot a prone target. doesnt mean it cant be hit. and im sure if the guy was hit by a bullet, he'd make some sort of movement showing he did.

and no matter what math you do, the number 59 is too many bullets to be fired to bring down a suspect.

"Police accounts and a patrol car video indicate the shots were fired in three volleys, all within 30 seconds. Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol. Some officers emptied their magazines, reloaded and fired again, while others didn't fire all their bullets, Weary said."

the main thing is the cops RELOADED and then started firing again.

They felt the need, what's the problem?

"Police said the officers tried but failed to disarm Heyward with a stun gun. Weary said Heyward ignored repeated commands to drop the rifle and officers fired when they felt threatened by the way he moved it."

now im all for them firing because he was moving the gun in a threatening way. take him down. make sure he doesnt harm anyone or himself. 20 shots ok. if their so called "training" was good then they should have been able to hit him and kill him. i know about aim. i know about accuracy. and with a gun and TRAINING you should be able to hit a prone target. but 59 is too many.


thats like me shooting a guy with a gun coming at me with a gun. then once he's on the ground shooting him 20 more times because i saw his body twitching so he's still a threat to me.

Did you or did you not read that there were six cops who fired 59 rounds among them. That's an average of 10 rounds per cop. What is unreasonable about this?

[coletrain]

I'm shocked by the comment:

"Police accounts and a patrol car video indicate the shots were fired in three volleys, all within 30 seconds. Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol. Some officers emptied their magazines, reloaded and fired again..."

[Shadow1]

Did you or did you not read that there were six cops who fired 59 rounds among them. That's an average of 10 rounds per cop. What is unreasonable about this?

guns themselves cant kill a person. it takes a human to pull the trigger. and that human has to be either an evil person or doing it out of self defense. thats what i mean by "guns dont kill people. stupid mother******s with guns kill people." and i understand your point about him being disturbed enough to take someone with him. but that wasnt the case here. he HIMSELF was talking about committing suicide. not taking someone with him. if he had that intention in his head he wouldnt have been on the phone with someone, he'd be at their house.

feeling the need to reload your gun after a suspect is down to start firing again once you reloaded is wrong. im sure after about 20 bullets, the guy wasnt going to be moving. so yes. no matter how you put it, 59 shots for ONE person is still excessive force. if he was still moving, THREATENINGLY now, not just moving in pain but moving to be a threat like going after a gun, after the 1st 15 shots hit him, then yes. i say another few WELL PLACED shots are needed. 59 is not.

just because it was 6 cops AVERAGING means nothing to me. that just says all the shots fired added up and divided by 6. it doesnt say how many shots were ACTUALLY fired by each officer. whos to say one cop didnt fire 40 and the others only fired 19? like the report says, some officers reloaded and continued to fire while others stopped. you saying "averaging 10 shots per cop" means nothing. that just divides the shots between all 6 cops.