bonds hasn't admitted anything.....but...

[uncle_el]

doesn't really make a difference to me.
i liked him in pittsburgh (always thought the pirates could win teh series with the lineup they had then), i like him now.

we already know sports writers aren't particularly fond of him, because he's not fond of them and doesn't sugar coat things.

i'll go ahead and quote jim rome "if you're not cheating, you're not trying. and it's only cheating if you get caught."

if everyone in baseball was "cheating" (i use the term loosely) and everyone has the same access to the same substances, then there's no uneven playing field! besides, it wasn't against the rules in place in baseball at the time anyway (though the use of steroids outside of medical conditions is illegal per our current legal system, but no one's made that point in the stories so far).

[AccordWarrior]

The only thing I don't like about all this is the records that are being broken. I'm not saying Bonds is or isn't juiced. My personal opinion is I think he's had enhancers during his career (illegal or not).

However, you see people like him, Mark McGwire, and all of them just hitting homer after homer with huge biceps and stuff like that. And then you try and compare them to Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron. I guess its just like seeing players like them and knowing how many HR's they hit without the aid of modern tech, makes you wonder how many they could have hit with the same regimen, supplements etc as the modern guys.

I know you can say the game and parks have changed, but it is my opinion that the level of greatness of some of the current players doesn't exceed older players, and they had a lot less advantages.

But I agree, the media has made Bonds out to be the bad guy and have been trying to pin him for months now. But that's the media, build a guy up only to tear him down ASAP.

[AccordWarrior]

Originally posted by fizzbob7
Mark mcgwire had 30+ lbs on bonds......and a short, injury-filled career

Guys back then didn't work as hard......pitching was MUCH less technical (3 or 4 pitches) and slower.......fewer teams.......

Babe ruth only played against white people.......not fair is it......

Hank played in a more comparable era, but still, nothing can be taken away from todays players.......pitchers are better, more traveling, less familiarity with players, less protection for the sluggers.....

Thing is, steroids aren't gonna help you get more hits, swing faster, or play longer.....they hinder all that........how many times did canseco bat .350....or mcgwire over .300

So you think Bonds would be a better player if he wasn't juicing?

And I agree that baseball was a lot different, I guess I'm just another person that would love to see them all play in an equal environment where everyone had the same access to everything. Speaking of Hank Aaron, if I remember right, he wasn't even in the majors during some of the prime years of his career because of the color barrier.

I guess what irks me is people are talking about how great a player Bonds is (which he is, I'm not denying that), but in the same I whether other players would have been just as good as him with the same benefit/league conditions he had.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Bonds is a dominating force like someone like Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky, and I wonder how much Bonds's career choices have benefitted him in the Home Run Records he earned. What I meant by comparing him to Jordan and Gretzky is I think they would have excelled in any time period they would have played in. I don't think Bonds would have. I do think the medicines, etc he's on has helped him out.

But I don't' disagree that the media has hung him, while there are probably numerous other players that are just as guilty.

[uncle_el]

Originally posted by AccordWarrior
Speaking of Hank Aaron, if I remember right, he wasn't even in the majors during some of the prime years of his career because of the color barrier.

aaron played 1 season in the negro leagues (1951), 2 seasons in the mlb minors (1952-53), the rest in the majors 91954-76)

So you think Bonds would be a better player if he wasn't juicing?

And I agree that baseball was a lot different, I guess I'm just another person that would love to see them all play in an equal environment where everyone had the same access to everything.
I guess what irks me is people are talking about how great a player Bonds is (which he is, I'm not denying that), but in the same I whether other players would have been just as good as him with the same benefit/league conditions he had.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Bonds is a dominating force like someone like Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky, and I wonder how much Bonds's career choices have benefitted him in the Home Run Records he earned. What I meant by comparing him to Jordan and Gretzky is I think they would have excelled in any time period they would have played in. I don't think Bonds would have. I do think the medicines, etc he's on has helped him out.

my counter argument would be that from all indications, if bonds was indeed "juicing" it was at most from 1998 and ran until now (2004), a 6 year time span:
he'd already been in the league for 12 seasons.
3 mvp's.
7 gold gloves.
330 homers.
top 10 slugging percentage every season since 1988.
top 10 in runs scored every season...
top 10 on base percentage every season...
top 10 rbi's every season...
batting average consistently 290s to 300s
top 10 intentionally walked since 1988... #1 from 1992-1998

bonds was easily a force to be reckoned with his whole career, before the suspicion of steroids.

i am a biased bonds fan!