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    #76
    Originally posted by HybridKyle View Post
    I agree 100%

    We will all go down, and I think thats how it will become government run....people will just give up. Hell they almost have now.

    I also think the cash for clunkers deal....same as the housing market did. People saw that $3500-$4500 and went out and got something they didn't need nor could afford. I am not saying everyone who used it cannot afford it, but for the most part it wasn't the smartest thing to do...




    My only other concern at the moment is the name calling and fighting...and the politicians who are encouraging and causing some of it. Vote what the people want, they are the ones who put you into the position you are in, you might want to take that into account.

    We are all Americans, be proud of that, remember what you stand for...why you stand for it. The people who have paid the price for you to have your opinions and choices...remember that please.
    I do not entirely agree about the Cash for Clunkers program, but it is too early to measure long term results. In many cases, people are replacing a gas bill with a car payment, so it really doesn't matter much if they are trading a 12MPG Suburban in on a Civic or Elantra or something. It also seems to be helping the auto industry immensely which is in turn helping people keep jobs that they may not have otherwise been able to.

    Also, once the government goes bankrupt, there won't be ANYTHING government run because the government will collapse and cease to be, at which point it will be total anarchy and every man, woman, and child for themselves. If you look back through history, a government collapse never resulted in tyranny from the same government. It was always a new government that usually started out as a bunch of warring clans, the strongest of which gained total power. I do not believe it is a scenario which we want to recreate. Things don't historically go well for a long time, because then, ultimately if the cool, level heads can't prevail to make a functional agreed upon government, we have to go through the bullshit of rebelling, getting thousands of people killed, and then forming a suitable government. One would hope it would go down like the collapse of the Russian government, where everybody mostly agreed on a new way foward, although their situation wasn't without its B.S. and power struggles either.

    One other philisophical observation about this country in the current age. We are no longer proud to be "American" we are more worried about dividing ourselves into groups, denominations, sects, whatever you want to call it.

    It is no longer about "I am an AMERICAN." It is about I am a FEMALE American, or I am an AFRICAN American, or I am a MEXICAN American, etc. etc. etc. down the line. The funny thing is that often right after they make that distinction, they then turn around and complain about this thing called "equality" and how they want it, or don't have it. But the problem is that nobody can ever be equal as long as we divide ourselves amongst ourselves. Unless we all have the common goal of being an AMERICAN, without the tags, taglines, denominations etc, we are destined to fail. We can not be united as a people, if we do not stand united.

    Case in point. My family is from a large number of different countries. I have everything from almost enough Native American to live on a reservation, to Italian, German, British, French Canadien, Polish, English etc. etc. My ancestors all came over on a boat, all from different cultures etc. When they got here, they managed to be "American" without losing their cultural identity. My Italian family still acted and observed all of the italian traditions, family values, and cultural functions. But, when it came time to make life decisions, they were "American."

    Perhaps due to the way the country was settled and the fact that blacks were not given their freedoms until much later, and through much more violent methods, they decided to identify as a single group, while all white people were lumped together, even though our backgrounds are as varied as anybodies. Still to this day, you are either "white" or a minority, as though all white people are exactly the same. It isn't something that necessarily bothers me, but I think it would be much more beneficial in the long term, if we didn't divide ourselves. Countries in Europe don't get it because they just are. English black people don't identify themselves much differently than English white people. Obviously, there are cultural, heritage and religious differences, but they don't seem to divide the way they do here. We are still relatively young as a nation as well, so perhaps we will figure it out in the future. I do see progress in being "blind" from generation to generation, so that is progress in the right direction.

    I don't know, just a random musing I got after listening to Bill Cosby.
    Last edited by owequitit; 08-20-2009, 12:23 AM.
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      #77
      Originally posted by HybridKyle View Post
      I agree 100%

      We will all go down, and I think thats how it will become government run....people will just give up. Hell they almost have now.

      I also think the cash for clunkers deal....same as the housing market did. People saw that $3500-$4500 and went out and got something they didn't need nor could afford. I am not saying everyone who used it cannot afford it, but for the most part it wasn't the smartest thing to do...




      My only other concern at the moment is the name calling and fighting...and the politicians who are encouraging and causing some of it. Vote what the people want, they are the ones who put you into the position you are in, you might want to take that into account.

      We are all Americans, be proud of that, remember what you stand for...why you stand for it. The people who have paid the price for you to have your opinions and choices...remember that please.

      By your logic, people buying things they need vs. things they don't need would put this country into bankruptcy faster than any trillion dollar spending bill.


      70% of Americas GDP is based on consumer spending.

      This entire economy is based on consuming possessions, regardless of their need ($2500 Coach purse anyone?).

      You want to be in a country where people buy things they need rather than what they want?

      Try North Korea, I hear the food there is great.
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        #78
        Originally posted by verothacamaro View Post
        By your logic, people buying things they need vs. things they don't need would put this country into bankruptcy faster than any trillion dollar spending bill.


        70% of Americas GDP is based on consumer spending.

        This entire economy is based on consuming possessions, regardless of their need ($2500 Coach purse anyone?).

        You want to be in a country where people buy things they need rather than what they want?

        Try North Korea, I hear the food there is great.
        Could it be due to our industry shifting primarily from manufacturing to service type industry?


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          #79
          Originally posted by quakerjoe View Post
          Could it be due to our industry shifting primarily from manufacturing to service type industry?
          Humans are opportunistic apex predators. We do things because it benefits us. Pure and simple, basic human behavioral science.

          The whole premise of the US and free market is that it allows us to go out, and produce and achieve in OUR avenue of choice so that we my buy those things we want.

          Our economy is not as big as it is because of some sleight of hand, divine intervention, or federal mandate. Our economy is as big as it is because if you want to go out and produce, you can. The motivation is that the benefit of that work is that you can do things that you WANT to do, instead of HAVE to do.

          I think the service aspect is merely a change from one mode to another as we have grown more prosperous.
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            #80
            Originally posted by owequitit View Post

            One other philisophical observation about this country in the current age. We are no longer proud to be "American" we are more worried about dividing ourselves into groups, denominations, sects, whatever you want to call it.

            It is no longer about "I am an AMERICAN." It is about I am a FEMALE American, or I am an AFRICAN American, or I am a MEXICAN American, etc. etc. etc. down the line. The funny thing is that often right after they make that distinction, they then turn around and complain about this thing called "equality" and how they want it, or don't have it. But the problem is that nobody can ever be equal as long as we divide ourselves amongst ourselves. Unless we all have the common goal of being an AMERICAN, without the tags, taglines, denominations etc, we are destined to fail. We can not be united as a people, if we do not stand united.

            Case in point. My family is from a large number of different countries. I have everything from almost enough Native American to live on a reservation, to Italian, German, British, French Canadien, Polish, English etc. etc. My ancestors all came over on a boat, all from different cultures etc. When they got here, they managed to be "American" without losing their cultural identity. My Italian family still acted and observed all of the italian traditions, family values, and cultural functions. But, when it came time to make life decisions, they were "American."

            Perhaps due to the way the country was settled and the fact that blacks were not given their freedoms until much later, and through much more violent methods, they decided to identify as a single group, while all white people were lumped together, even though our backgrounds are as varied as anybodies. Still to this day, you are either "white" or a minority, as though all white people are exactly the same. It isn't something that necessarily bothers me, but I think it would be much more beneficial in the long term, if we didn't divide ourselves. Countries in Europe don't get it because they just are. English black people don't identify themselves much differently than English white people. Obviously, there are cultural, heritage and religious differences, but they don't seem to divide the way they do here. We are still relatively young as a nation as well, so perhaps we will figure it out in the future. I do see progress in being "blind" from generation to generation, so that is progress in the right direction.

            .
            This is EXACTLY my point....you read my mind

            The cash for clunkers though...why were dealerships told they would be paid within 10 days of this program and they haven't seen anything? It's been over three weeks now. Sure GM is seeing a positive reaction...I wonder why though? You have all these employees of other car manufacturers, and dealerships that have not been paid. Where's the stimulation there? I guess maybe a reach around would be nice.

            Originally posted by verothacamaro View Post
            By your logic, people buying things they need vs. things they don't need would put this country into bankruptcy faster than any trillion dollar spending bill.


            70% of Americas GDP is based on consumer spending.

            This entire economy is based on consuming possessions, regardless of their need ($2500 Coach purse anyone?).

            You want to be in a country where people buy things they need rather than what they want?

            Try North Korea, I hear the food there is great.
            All I am saying is that it's not the smartest thing to do right now to be "pork" spending. I never said anything about not buying things you want, AS LONG AS IT'S WITHIN YOUR MEANS. That is all I said. The economy base that you state above IS THE PROBLEM thats what I am saying. The people, and government are just spending like the more they spend the better things will get. It's not even really money, it's debt/credit. How much money does this country owe China right now? Maybe I should move there They have government run health care

            North Korea huh...well I hear they are having a regime change right now, and are looking for some volunteers to carry out nuke testing...AND I will mention the fact that I do love some medium rare dog-on-a-stick

            *Click on photo for my MR thread

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              #81
              http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/26275

              This is a new and interesting development.

              http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090820/...ck_health_poll
              Last edited by owequitit; 08-20-2009, 01:31 AM.
              The OFFICIAL how to add me to your ignore list thread!

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                #82
                Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                Humans are opportunistic apex predators. We do things because it benefits us. Pure and simple, basic human behavioral science.

                The whole premise of the US and free market is that it allows us to go out, and produce and achieve in OUR avenue of choice so that we my buy those things we want.

                Our economy is not as big as it is because of some sleight of hand, divine intervention, or federal mandate. Our economy is as big as it is because if you want to go out and produce, you can. The motivation is that the benefit of that work is that you can do things that you WANT to do, instead of HAVE to do.

                I think the service aspect is merely a change from one mode to another as we have grown more prosperous.
                I understand that, I was trying to make a connection to the usage of foreign products vs. domestic products. By shifting from production to primarily a service type industry the amount of foreign goods used will most likely increase.

                However, after I went back and reread his post I found that I misread what he was referring. He was referring to what drives the economy, where I was discussing the balance of imported goods vs. domestic goods and how the shift to a service industry might drive up the usage of imported goods. Thus making my comment Off Topic and irrelevant. I guess that's what I get for skimming.


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                  #83
                  Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                  Yeah it is....

                  Amazing that all of a sudden things are starting to change, they are back tracking on what they said and proposed in the beginning. I don't trust them anymore, plain and simple...if these things are what they are saying now, then they need to change the Bill to fit this. NOT try and pass it then make amendments, thats where they give you the weenie...bend over America, I'll at least spit on it for you

                  *Click on photo for my MR thread

                  Comment


                    #84
                    so....many words.....
                    Um...OWq, can I have cliff notes here?

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by HybridKyle View Post
                      This is EXACTLY my point....you read my mind

                      The cash for clunkers though...why were dealerships told they would be paid within 10 days of this program and they haven't seen anything? It's been over three weeks now. Sure GM is seeing a positive reaction...I wonder why though? You have all these employees of other car manufacturers, and dealerships that have not been paid. Where's the stimulation there? I guess maybe a reach around would be nice.



                      All I am saying is that it's not the smartest thing to do right now to be "pork" spending. I never said anything about not buying things you want, AS LONG AS IT'S WITHIN YOUR MEANS. That is all I said. The economy base that you state above IS THE PROBLEM thats what I am saying. The people, and government are just spending like the more they spend the better things will get. It's not even really money, it's debt/credit. How much money does this country owe China right now? Maybe I should move there They have government run health care

                      North Korea huh...well I hear they are having a regime change right now, and are looking for some volunteers to carry out nuke testing...AND I will mention the fact that I do love some medium rare dog-on-a-stick
                      The problem with cash for clunkers, and it is all over the news, is that the reception for the program was overwhelming compared to what they expected. If you have X number of people doing the paperwork, and the deman is 300 times what you planned for, then it is going to create delays. They were unable to pay fast enough because they were getting so many more trade-in requests versus what they expected. Also, the original allotment of money, which I think was supposed to last for at least a couple of months, was gone in a week. They refilled it with the same amount, and it was gone in a week. They have now had to tell the dealers to stop the cash for clunkers trades, because the money is gone, and they risk not getting paid for it, unless Congress decides to extend it some more.
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                        #86
                        Originally posted by zack_odom View Post
                        so....many words.....
                        Um...OWq, can I have cliff notes here?
                        Unfortunately, no. There are no cliff's notes for life. Try reading it, you might find it to be somewhat informative.
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                          #88
                          Originally posted by sulimed
                          removed to avoid flaming
                          I asked for the comments to be eliminated so that the discussion may continue, flame free.
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                            #89
                            Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                            I asked for the comments to be eliminated so that the discussion may continue, flame free.
                            Granted.

                            I do have a question though. This is just my depiction of what I see on here at times. I understand we are trying to keep things simple an civil. I can respect that. However, it does seem like when thing go in certain people's favor (you know who you are), everything is alright. As soon as something is said that rubs y'all the wrong way, y'all are quick to deleted a post or close a thread. Why is that? I guess this isn't a democracy. I've always noticed that.
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                            "Stop punching down on my people!!!"

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                              #90
                              Originally posted by Straight Success View Post
                              Granted.

                              I do have a question though. This is just my depiction of what I see on here at times. I understand we are trying to keep things simple an civil. I can respect that. However, it does seem like when thing go in certain people's favor (you know who you are), everything is alright. As soon as something is said that rubs y'all the wrong way, y'all are quick to deleted a post or close a thread. Why is that? I guess this isn't a democracy. I've always noticed that.
                              You are misinterpreting. You have been given a chance to contribute, and put up your side of the argument. So far, other than 3 very minor links, you have failed to do so.

                              The last comment was nothing but a pure flame, and your comment was simply egging it on.

                              YOU want to believe that because things aren't going YOUR way, they are biased against you. That is not the case.

                              Full on flames have been removed, and so far this thread has been relatively flame free. However, most of the other "ignorant" comments were addressed and discussed and to this point, that has occurred in a rational, logical and open minded manner. I have tried to have as little as possible removed, but I will not abide unsubstantiated flames, because that will result in a lock. Most of the previous comments at least provided some logical basis of discussion, regardless how flawed that logic may have been. As such, it provides a jumping off point for discussion. However, the removed comments were just blatantly ignorant, weren't backed up by anything, and as such provided no merit to anything.

                              This thread has not been a blantantly ignorant Obama bash fest, nor has it been a blatantly ignorant Obama love fest, which is exactly where it should be, because THAT is the middle. If you see that as "biased," then it is you who is biased, and not the thread.

                              Now, if you have something substantiated that you would like to add and discuss, post away. Otherwise, I will just have it deleted again. You are more than welcome to discuss in this thread, but there must be some merit to it. We aren't going to do the traditional 16 year old, blinded by ideology CB7tuner flame fest, and I am going to try and prevent that for as long as I can. We are already technically outside the rules, but people need to learn to discuss real issues that affect them and the real world without getting all butthurt because their ideology might not be as sound as they had hoped. There are faults on both sides of the system, that can in fact be talked out and worked through if people act like adults and keep an open mind. Frankly, on its present path, our government is likely only a decade away from collapse, and as such, now is not the time for ignorance.
                              Last edited by owequitit; 08-23-2009, 06:36 PM.
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