Obama/McCain..... Socialists?

[owequitit]

didn't know you need a better reason than the fact that bush wont be in office. i'd take a mcCain office over a bush

Sure I do. Why don't you ellaborate on EXACTLY where Bush went wrong, and how the new President of your choice is going to fix it.

I do want concrete examples now, because I know I can give them.

[owequitit]

Awesome thread

Wealth redistribution is crap and erodes the value of hard work and planning. Let me tell u something, if the gov't said 'we are gonna tax the rich and give to the poor' I would quit my job today

Obama & McCain's stuff they're saying IMO have no bearing on the stuff they plan on actually doing, as they have to pander to a very nervous voting bloc to get elected. I don't see either of them effecting significant change once in office in regards to changing the course of events already in place. You have several fundamental financial timebombs in place- the continuing wave of ARM resets, the Wild Wild West of credit default swaps, the continuing deflation of the American real estate market- and then the long term issues like SS & Medicare - that neither candidate has really said anything great about; either due to a lack of understanding or fear of pissing off groups they made promises to.

People lambast Bush, and yes, I agree that our diplomatic strategies over the past 8 years have been unsatisfactory, but a lot of the stuff we are seeing isn't his fault... the housing mess was exacerbated and overlooked by his cabinet, but it was also overlooked by a Democratic congress, and was ticked off by America's favorite sax blower, Clinton, when he made changes to the Community Reinvestment Act that essentially forced banks to start issuing the bad loans that started this whole financial mess to begin with.

So I dunno. I'm w/Obama solely for his views on the war, but beyond his ability to speak well I haven't been impressed.

Ron Paul 2008

Much of this is most likely true. Neither one has given any kind of concrete evidence on how really.

If we get enough of a majority in Congress, and a Democratic President, then one agenda is going to get pushed. Luckily, I bitch at all my Congressmen as often as possible.

[owequitit]

On further reading of Obama's healthcare plan, there won't really be nationalization for most people.

Only those who can't work, or so they say.

What he DOES plan to do is REQUIRE employeers to offer healthcare, and then they are going to most likely tax BOTH you and the employeer for the healthcare that the government provides. So essentially, if you have to pay a nominal fee at work for your care, then you will pay twice, even though you only get care once. Unless of course they mandate that the employeer absorb the cost, in which case, that is going to really screw small businesses, as they are limited in the plans they can afford, and may not be able to provide adequate coverage.

I am also curious as to what the definition of "underinsured" is, because they are also talking about fining companies that fail to provide adequate coverage.

These are questions I will have to seek answers too. I also decided I am going to search IRS statistics to see what tax brackets pay what % of the tax collected, as both sides say something different.

[owequitit]

LOL! This is going to take awhile...but here are some general links for your perusal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxatio..._United_States

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/index.html

Oddly, according to what I am looking at now, the $100-200K bracket seems to have accounted for 20% of all tax revenue collected during 2006, despite accounting for only 8.7% of the total returns filed.

The heavy increase starts around $50K and continues up to $500K, where the majority of tax revenue is collected. On a % basis, it climbs significantly above that point, but the reduced number of people up there cause an overall decrease in the total amount collected.

2006 is the latest data that is available.

Some facts:

* 53.2% of all tax revenue was paid by those making $100K per year or greater, despite the fact that only 51.2% of filed returns fell into this income range. 82.4% of taxes were paid by households having income $75K or greater.

*35.9% of all income taxes were paid by those making $500K or more. This income range accounted for less than 1% of all filed returns.

* A household making up to $49,999 averaged $1700 in tax liability over the course of 2006.

* A household making up to $199,999K averaged $5,406 in tax liability.

* A household making up to $499,999K averaged $7,152 in tax liability.

* A household making up to 1 million averaged $8,126 in tax liability.

* A household making over $5 million, but less than $10 million averaged $9,636 in liability.

* A house making over $10 million averaged $10,060 in tax liability.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/06in11si.xls

Considering the % of people that exist in the upper tax brackets, it is fairly clear that we already tax the "rich" much more than the poor.

Obama plans to increase taxes for those in the $250K plus range from 35% to 36.5%.

McCain would hold them steady.

[MadSpleen85]

Considering the % of people that exist in the upper tax brackets, it is fairly clear that we already tax the "rich" much more than the poor.

Obama plans to increase taxes for those in the $250K plus range from 35% to 36.5%.

McCain would hold them steady.

Not to mention, Obama has already said that he will let the Bush tax cuts expire, which is a raise in taxes.

I fail to understand how raising taxes on those making $250K + is supposed to give the rest of us under that a break. That is just raising the taxes on those higher up the pay chart, and the person that pays me. Government taking more of his money results in him having less money to pay me with.

So the government wants us in the "middle class" to think that it is the big business owners (making the $250K+) that are screwing us over on our paychecks, when in all reality it is them (the government) taking my bosses money who in turn takes my money.

I should be sleeping right now.







I'm Joe the Plumber

[mj213]

** UPDATE **

In response to your question the other day, Scott, had I been to the ER lately? Yes. I spent from 815pm or so until about 1100pm waiting for my son to be admitted. He was crying and complaining that his tummy was hurting. He had a pretty good fever when we went in. Anyway, no medication, just go home and drink plenty of fluids. We were mostly concerned that he may have something serious going on, as he usually NEVER complains or cries when he's feeling bad.

There wasn't a lot of people in there, but we were definitely the last ones seen (even after the people that came in after us). I'm sure one can say "well it's tuesday, and an evening; shift change extended the wait time; staff may have been shorthanded; etc".

Point I'm making is that it hasn't really improved from this one experience. Hopefully, I won't have any more experiences any time soon!

[owequitit]

Not to mention, Obama has already said that he will let the Bush tax cuts expire, which is a raise in taxes.

I fail to understand how raising taxes on those making $250K + is supposed to give the rest of us under that a break. That is just raising the taxes on those higher up the pay chart, and the person that pays me. Government taking more of his money results in him having less money to pay me with.

So the government wants us in the "middle class" to think that it is the big business owners (making the $250K+) that are screwing us over on our paychecks, when in all reality it is them (the government) taking my bosses money who in turn takes my money.

I should be sleeping right now.







I'm Joe the Plumber

Actually, the expiration of the Bush tax cuts is what will raise it from 35%-36.5%. There won't be a further increase. He is basically just undoing what Bush did.

Two observations on this.

1) Yes, they have more money to tax. And yes, that is a fairly small increase on a % basis. However, it could add up to major bucks.

2) With the economy in the state that it is and much of the financial loss that has been seen in the last few months coming right out of the rich's pockets, A) will this adversely affect their ability to recover financially, and will that create a corresponding hardship for those that they have to pay? B) Will it have the desired revenue results, as 36.5% of a much smaller number is less than 35% of a larger number?

[owequitit]

** UPDATE **

In response to your question the other day, Scott, had I been to the ER lately? Yes. I spent from 815pm or so until about 1100pm waiting for my son to be admitted. He was crying and complaining that his tummy was hurting. He had a pretty good fever when we went in. Anyway, no medication, just go home and drink plenty of fluids. We were mostly concerned that he may have something serious going on, as he usually NEVER complains or cries when he's feeling bad.

There wasn't a lot of people in there, but we were definitely the last ones seen (even after the people that came in after us). I'm sure one can say "well it's tuesday, and an evening; shift change extended the wait time; staff may have been shorthanded; etc".

Point I'm making is that it hasn't really improved from this one experience. Hopefully, I won't have any more experiences any time soon!

1) Triage determines when people are seen. Based on symptoms and vitals, he was probably not as emergent as others. Even though you think something serious may be wrong, it may not be. That is what triage is for, and that is what those people are trained to do. It could also be a hospital thing as wait time in Havasu are very low.

Nationalized anything isn't going to change that.

2) If you think the wait times are bad now, just wait. Did you see the post from King James? He is in Canada where the healthcare system is oh so awesome. His experience jives with mine. His girlfriends appendix burst while waiting in the ER, and still they weren't going to do anything.

Did he mention the fact that 40% of his wages go to taxes AND he still has to pay about as much for coverage as I used to? So much for free and free. And all of that to get a lower level of care. Sounds awesome to me... :sarcasm:

[verothacamaro]

Not to mention, Obama has already said that he will let the Bush tax cuts expire, which is a raise in taxes.

I fail to understand how raising taxes on those making $250K + is supposed to give the rest of us under that a break. That is just raising the taxes on those higher up the pay chart, and the person that pays me. Government taking more of his money results in him having less money to pay me with.

So the government wants us in the "middle class" to think that it is the big business owners (making the $250K+) that are screwing us over on our paychecks, when in all reality it is them (the government) taking my bosses money who in turn takes my money.

I should be sleeping right now.







I'm Joe the Plumber

You're a plumber?

I thought you were a cadet cop?

ooohhh I get it....it's one of those cute [insert popular american name here] the [enter blue collar profession here] phrases.

[MadSpleen85]

You're a plumber?

I thought you were a cadet cop?

ooohhh I get it....it's one of those cute [insert popular american name here] the [enter blue collar profession here] phrases.

Apparently since the internet is serious business, I should have inserted a disclaimer.


Disclaimer: My name is not Joe, I am not a Plumber


Since apparently you live in a cave...

[owequitit]

Apparently since the internet is serious business, I should have inserted a disclaimer.


Disclaimer: My name is not Joe, I am not a Plumber


Since apparently you live in a cave...

That comes from JohnMcCain.com though. That makes it tainted.

He isn't increasing taxes for anyone except those that make over 250K. He isn't lowering them either though. All he wants to do is extend Bush's tax cuts below that point.

[mj213]

1) Triage determines when people are seen. Based on symptoms and vitals, he was probably not as emergent as others. Even though you think something serious may be wrong, it may not be. That is what triage is for, and that is what those people are trained to do. It could also be a hospital thing as wait time in Havasu are very low.

Nationalized anything isn't going to change that.

2) If you think the wait times are bad now, just wait. Did you see the post from King James? He is in Canada where the healthcare system is oh so awesome. His experience jives with mine. His girlfriends appendix burst while waiting in the ER, and still they weren't going to do anything.

Did he mention the fact that 40% of his wages go to taxes AND he still has to pay about as much for coverage as I used to? So much for free and free. And all of that to get a lower level of care. Sounds awesome to me... :sarcasm:

I wasn't necessarily saying that the Canadian healthcare system is the answer. I was just giving an update since I don't get to the ER very often.

[owequitit]

I wasn't necessarily saying that the Canadian healthcare system is the answer. I was just giving an update since I don't get to the ER very often.

Ah, I have noticed a slightly "lower" level of service at this one too. I have never had any issues, but the wait times could be long. I suppose it just depends on what kind of facilities they have, and how they staff them too.

Of course, here, there are so many old people, they had to build a second hospital.

Which ER do you usually use? I have only used the one downtown.

[MadSpleen85]

That comes from JohnMcCain.com though. That makes it tainted.

The only purpose of putting that video in here was in response to the earlier comment...

You're a plumber?

I thought you were a cadet cop?

ooohhh I get it....it's one of those cute [insert popular american name here] the [enter blue collar profession here] phrases.

Apparently since the internet is serious business, I should have inserted a disclaimer.


Disclaimer: My name is not Joe, I am not a Plumber


Since apparently you live in a cave...

...VIDEO...

EDIT: Also have now heard several different sources say that Obama said tax breaks for anyone making less than $200,000 now. So the figure has already dropped. At this rate it will be down to $100,000 by election day.

[texasvtak]