Sarah Palin Debate Flow Chart

[texasvtak]

I find it pretty ironic that Gov. Palin sided with the borrowers on this issue of where to place the blame. "There was deception there" she said. "never again will we be exploited." Not exactly in line with the rest of her garbage party/movement or that percentage of people in the bailout thread that insisted only the consumers were to blame.

Could you be any more...partisan?

[owequitit]

I find it pretty ironic that Gov. Palin sided with the borrowers on this issue of where to place the blame. "There was deception there" she said. "never again will we be exploited." Not exactly in line with the rest of her garbage party/movement or that percentage of people in the bailout thread that insisted only the consumers were to blame.

Neither one of your posts changes the facts as they exist. The fact is that BOTH speeches were full of lies. But of course, you are so unpartisan that you don't want to believe that Biden would lie to you.

Believe what you want, but the consumers ARE to blame for much of it.

If someone walks up to you and tries to sell you a bad product, and you buy it, you are at fault as well. Caveat Emptor.

This is further perpetuation of the average American today wanting to blame someone else for their own stupidity. I knew these mortgages were going to lead to a meltdown as soon as they debuted. Anyone who can't see that faults in an interest only, or below prime interest rate loan is a fucking idiot. Simple as that. Anyone who bought a house they couldn't afford otherwise using one of these loans was an even bigger idiot. Anyway you cut it, and anyway you try to justify placing blame, the consumers are STILL at fault for being stupid.

[deevergote]

Anyone who would get a variable mortgage with a 2% starting rate is a moron... It's variable. It's already WELL below a reasonable interest rate. Where is it going to go when it varies? UP! You dumb sonofabitch!

Interest only makes sense for people who wish to flip a property. Keep initial costs down, buy cheap, fix it up, and make your profit on the short term. Interest only can get you a lower rate, because the mortgage companies are getting ALL their money first. You're renting until the interest is paid in full.


I totally agree that the consumer is largely to blame. The mortgage companies were perhaps a bit unethical in pushing these loans that couldn't possibly be beneficial to the people that bought them. People don't understand such things, and no agent is going to explain how their product can be detrimental.



In the end, we're all people. The consumers, the businesses... We're all Americans, and we all feel the financial crunch. It's not us vs. them.

[owequitit]

Anyone who would get a variable mortgage with a 2% starting rate is a moron... It's variable. It's already WELL below a reasonable interest rate. Where is it going to go when it varies? UP! You dumb sonofabitch!

Interest only makes sense for people who wish to flip a property. Keep initial costs down, buy cheap, fix it up, and make your profit on the short term. Interest only can get you a lower rate, because the mortgage companies are getting ALL their money first. You're renting until the interest is paid in full.


I totally agree that the consumer is largely to blame. The mortgage companies were perhaps a bit unethical in pushing these loans that couldn't possibly be beneficial to the people that bought them. People don't understand such things, and no agent is going to explain how their product can be detrimental.



In the end, we're all people. The consumers, the businesses... We're all Americans, and we all feel the financial crunch. It's not us vs. them.

This is true, and in attempting to sort out the timeline and put the horse before the cart instead of vice versa, one must ask the question. What would have happened to the "subprime" mortgage fiasco we are currently in had consumers refused to buy it? My guess is that like most unwanted products, it would have faded into history as an afterthought. Let us not forget that we ARE still in a free market system, and not 1 single person was FORCED to take one of those mortgages. Traditional mortgages were still very much offered, and there was always the option of not buying anything.

And yes, Mike to a point you are correct. The problem was that EVERYONE, including the consumer, was speculating that they could flip the house, and/or refinance it with a conventional loan.

1) They had made an assumption that was false, and that was that the market would continue unabated. They didn't realize that they were spending themselves out of money, and thus buying power, which directly translates into a fall of the market because there is no one left to buy. And they also just took historical projections and carried them foward as is without considering the true signs of the market (much like Clinton's "balanced budget" B.S. at the end of his term).

2) Refinancing with a conventional loan was not an option from the beginning, because they could barely afford the interest only at a rate BELOW what the prime rate was. Add a realistic interest rate in PLUS the principle and you are really screwed. I have family members that lost a house to this crap. The payment went from about $900 a month to over $2500 in a single day. That is also why people who think they will just convert all these bad loans over to traditional fixed rate mortgages are stupid.

[deevergote]

Right.

Smart flippers bought houses well below their value, even in their current condition. Fixed it up to increase the value even more, and then sold it at a fair price. Those people understood the market, and found properties that they could get in and out of before the market headed back down again. The market SKYROCKETED because of these loans. People could afford more house than ever before thanks to the low payments promised, so eventually the average price of houses just went through the roof.

Those that rode that wave in flipping were very smart and/or lucky. Those that misunderstood the concept... failed. Miserably.

I see so many incomplete renovations in my job (foreclosures).

[Fake Thug]

Hells yeah! I would beat up Sarah Palin's Genitalia so hard!

I dunno. She looks kinda good I'll admit, but that woman just doesn't seem to have any sex apeal. Nah uh mean? prolly not but I could be 100% wrong on that.

[Fake Thug]

This is further perpetuation of the average American today wanting to blame someone else for their own stupidity. I knew these mortgages were going to lead to a meltdown as soon as they debuted. Anyone who can't see that faults in an interest only, or below prime interest rate loan is a fucking idiot. Simple as that. Anyone who bought a house they couldn't afford otherwise using one of these loans was an even bigger idiot. Anyway you cut it, and anyway you try to justify placing blame, the consumers are STILL at fault for being stupid.

No doubt. However I dont think that its against the law to be stupid. Even though that really isn't the case here. If consumers are stupid then its because the american voter embedded in them has rubbed off on them. Frankly, as of recent history as in post FDR american voters are stupid.

I'm trying to find a way to get my point across, but I keep failing with you. As usual.. Why would fred lend money to a deadbeat? Lure them in with low pricing, advance the down payment on the loan, then spike the interest on the loan, and be naive enough to think that said loser will actually pay the principle let alone interest/cost of the true loan?

Ohhhh...wait.. He's not that stupid. Maybe optimistic...oorr just greedy? Would he do that kind of thing without a safety net in place? Prolly not. You see there is a plan here. The plan is to not clue in the buyer(first time in some cases) to all specific details. If the borrowers had known exactly what it is they were going into I'm willing to bet a gagillion dollars that they would have done a 180 and never looked back. Garbage conclusion because the lenders knew exactly what it is they were getting into.


You see how cheap they(borrowers) are to be lured in by the low rates why would they knowingly jump into something that almost always will end up with atleast a 20% spike in price in a span of 5 years. These loans were pitched aggressively.

The agreements were veiled in ridiculously complex language. A lot of the time all they have to go on is what they are told. Another thing. These so called risky borrowers aren't even that risky. Only a percentage of them are true deadbeats. There were cases of legit good hardworking people with A1 credit and employment getting shafted as well. I still agree that common sense was lacking on the consumer side as the old adage states that if its too good to be true then it prolly is.

However as usual and is always the problem with these extreme let the free market decide types is that they dont know how to hold a corperation accountable. Lord knows greed and incompetence is only on the gorvernment or consumer side. Since these people bashing the consumer are so perfect and incapable of bad judgement or decisions are seemingly always right, then where were they when this was going down?

If they called it before it happened then where were they in our gorvernment or markets to layeth the smackethdown proper regulation/containment on irresponsible lenders? If they knew before hand that the economy could possibly tank like they claimed then where were they to correct the situation before it happened?

Oh wait, they dont exactly agree with regulation do they? They actually believe through some impervious act of god that the free market will take care of that problem. LOL.. Such fukkin bullshit. The free market cant even contain monopolies but it is going to handle stupid buissness practice and greed?

This whole blame the consumer logic goes something like this.

I am a superpower. You swing the busted swords , I swing the excalibur. I have the power and I just handed it to you. I have enemies, but the enemy of my enemy happens to be my ally for the time being. He's a lil unstable and as I said only my ally for the time being. That can change at any moment but he happens to be strategic . So why dont I give my suspect ally advanced and deadly nightmare scenerioish weaponry to use agaisnt my enemy? Give him whole stacks of the shit. We'll see how that pans out.

[owequitit]

No doubt. However I dont think that its against the law to be stupid. Even though that really isn't the case here. If consumers are stupid then its because the american voter embedded in them has rubbed off on them. Frankly, as of recent history as in post FDR american voters are stupid.

I'm trying to find a way to get my point across, but I keep failing with you. As usual.. Why would fred lend money to a deadbeat? Lure them in with low pricing, advance the down payment on the loan, then spike the interest on the loan, and be naive enough to think that said loser will actually pay the principle let alone interest/cost of the true loan?

Ohhhh...wait.. He's not that stupid. Maybe optimistic...oorr just greedy? Would he do that kind of thing without a safety net in place? Prolly not. You see there is a plan here. The plan is to not clue in the buyer(first time in some cases) to all specific details. If the borrowers had known exactly what it is they were going into I'm willing to bet a gagillion dollars that they would have done a 180 and never looked back. Garbage conclusion because the lenders knew exactly what it is they were getting into.


You see how cheap they(borrowers) are to be lured in by the low rates why would they knowingly jump into something that almost always will end up with atleast a 20% spike in price in a span of 5 years. These loans were pitched aggressively.

The agreements were veiled in ridiculously complex language. A lot of the time all they have to go on is what they are told. Another thing. These so called risky borrowers aren't even that risky. Only a percentage of them are true deadbeats. There were cases of legit good hardworking people with A1 credit and employment getting shafted as well. I still agree that common sense was lacking on the consumer side as the old adage states that if its too good to be true then it prolly is.

However as usual and is always the problem with these extreme let the free market decide types is that they dont know how to hold a corperation accountable. Lord knows greed and incompetence is only on the gorvernment or consumer side. Since these people bashing the consumer are so perfect and incapable of bad judgement or decisions are seemingly always right, then where were they when this was going down?

If they called it before it happened then where were they in our gorvernment or markets to layeth the smackethdown proper regulation/containment on irresponsible lenders? If they knew before hand that the economy could possibly tank like they claimed then where were they to correct the situation before it happened?

Oh wait, they dont exactly agree with regulation do they? They actually believe through some impervious act of god that the free market will take care of that problem. LOL.. Such fukkin bullshit. The free market cant even contain monopolies but it is going to handle stupid buissness practice and greed?

This whole blame the consumer logic goes something like this.

I am a superpower. You swing the busted swords , I swing the excalibur. I have the power and I just handed it to you. I have enemies, but the enemy of my enemy happens to be my ally for the time being. He's a lil unstable and as I said only my ally for the time being. That can change at any moment but he happens to be strategic . So why dont I give my suspect ally advanced and deadly nightmare scenerioish weaponry to use agaisnt my enemy? Give him whole stacks of the shit. We'll see how that pans out.

I understand what you are saying completely. I just disagree.

If you don't like that, too bad. I am not going to swallow this "big vs little, oh poor me" crap that you keep trying to shovel out.

I have news for you:

Legally, all terms and conditions are outlined in the loan documents that you sign. It isn't like they just changed things mid stream. If YOU fail to read what you are signing and thus agreeing to, or if you YOU fail to understand what you are reading and thus agreeing to, the YOU are stupid. YOU are at fault, and YOU are to blame. There is NO regulation or oversight like the consumer's regulation or oversight, especially since they have the FINAL say in everything that goes on. If you are too stupid to read, comprehend and question, then you deserve to fail.

Point blank period, plain and simple, case closed. ANYTHING else is a bullshit copout from typical Americans that want to blame someone else for something they have done wrong. Period.

We suddenly became stupid after FDR according to you. Did I get that right?

1) Are you sure we weren't stupid, or rather careless before, as we somehow managed to create the Great Depression PRIOR to FDR?

2) Or did the New Deal, manage to condition us that the government could save us from anything?