Different Engine Swap questions ie: f22a, f22b, H23, H22

[mrstix]

Hey guys,

I just got done typing a lengthy question, but it got removed because the title was not descriptive enough so this will be the super condensed version.

Foreword: Want to replace engine/tranny with 320k miles. Need help choosing a path. Not mechanically inclined. Done some research here and elsewhere.

Local Shop - JJs Motorsports - options (prices include engine and tranny installed)
1) f22a - $1550
2) f22b sohc non-vtech sohc from a 97' accord - $1650
3) H23 - $2100
4) H22 - $2500

The skinny as I understand it:
1) f22a - basically replacement motor, can be modded NA or boosted well later, less expensive initially
2) f22b - couldn't find much info on this one, doesn't seem to be very popular
3) h23 - good replacement and requires less modding because it is non vtech as well. has decent power
4) h22 - most popular, prices for complete swaps seems to vary heavily from $2500 most often quoted up to $4500 (I have link stating so). Because of the other things I would like to do, I don't think I will have the money for this one.

Curve ball: meet guy at work who is CB7 enthusiast. Trying to convince me to either take apart my motor or one of the above i get from the junkyard, have a machine shop clean up the parts, put back together and use it. I don't know the first thing about this, don't have tools, but have a family member who might be able to help a lot.

Questions:
1)Do the prices seem right (good) for a shop to do it? Is there anything I should be looking out for?
2) Which of these routes is promising? Do you have better suggestions?

I have more info and HAVE done some research. But these things are starting to jumble together and be over my head. I have a little understanding of mechanics but acronyms throw me for a loop and I need some help getting this project off the ground and choosing a first step.

Goals for the car are to keep it automatic, power steering, a/c. Restoring the car to the state of when it was a few years old would be ideal.

Please ask questions as I had to leave a bunch of stuff out on this second post and its still longer than intended.

Any help/advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

[deevergote]

VTEC. Vtech makes phones children's toys.

You can do a proper rebuild on the F22A for less than $1550 (and you'll have a new engine, not a used one.) You could also pick up an F22A for $200 or less and work on it yourself. "Not mechanically inclined" just means you have to spend some time learning.

F22B SOHC is worthless. No reason to swap that in (vtec or not) unless you desperately need a replacement engine, and you just happen to have an F22B on hand for free.
F22B DOHC is a better option, similar to the H23A. The lack of an available timing belt is a downside to that one, though.

H23A... 90% of the work to install an H22A for less than 50% of the power increase. Pass.

H22A. Holy shit that price is high! Do they plan to lube you up before they bend you over?
You can get a reliable H22A, with ECU and transmission, for $1800. Installing it is fairly straightforward, and has been very well documented on this site since 2003. Any shop that wants to charge you an additional $2700 to install an H22A is ripping you off bigtime!

Go the H22A route. See a cheaper installation option. Better yet, suck it up and pick up a wrench. Everybody starts somewhere. Do the swap yourself, and you'll no longer be able to say you're not mechanically inclined. Do the swap yourself, and you'll have an intimate knowledge of your car... a knowledge that will help you identify and fix any other problems that arise in the future (rather than taking your car to some shady shop that will charge out the nose to fix it... especially since most shops don't like touching modified cars for liability reasons.)

[sonikaccord]

EDIT: ^^^He beat me to the post button

Welcome to the forums! Before anyone jumps on you, vtec doesn't have an h on the end.
Spend alot of time in our swaps forum, much of this has already been covered.

To answer your questions:
1) Honestly the only swap that looks good is the h22, but who knows if the place does any preventative maintenance while the motor is out of the car. There is this thread that has people's swap experience http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201439

And another issue I have is that you already have the f22a, don't swap it with another f22a or the usdm f22b that may still have been abused.

2) All of the routes are promising, IMO not the f22b1. The jdm f22b is similar to the h23, however and is also a popular swap.

My suggestion:

Based on your goals, you pretty much answered your own question. If you are only wishing to restore your car to like new status, why not just refresh your own motor? That's what this community is for, that's to help each other. It's a wealth of info here, you could spend that $1550 on tools and parts have them for the rest of your life and learn how to pull out a motor, rebuild it, etc.

[deevergote]

I love how we both gave practically identical responses!

[mrstix]

H22A. Holy shit that price is high! Do they plan to lube you up before they bend you over?
You can get a reliable H22A, with ECU and transmission, for $1800. Installing it is fairly straightforward, and has been very well documented on this site since 2003. Any shop that wants to charge you an additional $2700 to install an H22A is ripping you off bigtime!

Sorry, I worded my post a little funny. $2500 is what the shop is asking. However, ~$4200 is what I found here: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=19737

The additional $2400 is what that guy wound up spending, and I remembered it as $4500 for some reason (easier of a number to remember I guess).

I also believe he did it by himself which is why I was worried that the $2500 that the shop quoted me or the $1800 that you mentioned is not the end of the story.

Thanks for the responses and advice.

I can see where $1800 for engine/tranny/ecu would be good to get and then get hands on, gain some knowledge and do it myself. And I will entertain this idea more.

As far as the rebuild for ~$1550, does that also include the transmission? Do people rebuild those too or just get used ones?

Can you rebuild any engine/transmission? How do you know when to just look into replacements? The guy I met at work said something about checking engine compression, but I don't know what he meant.

If ya'll were about to start your first project, would it be swapping in a new engine or rebuilding the one you already have? I can already tell that you guys are not in favor of shops.

EDIT: ^^^He beat me to the post button

Welcome to the forums! Before anyone jumps on you, vtec doesn't have an h on the end.
Spend alot of time in our swaps forum, much of this has already been covered.

To answer your questions:
1) Honestly the only swap that looks good is the h22, but who knows if the place does any preventative maintenance while the motor is out of the car. There is this thread that has people's swap experience http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201439

And another issue I have is that you already have the f22a, don't swap it with another f22a or the usdm f22b that may still have been abused.

Thanks! And thanks for the link. Looking at that link, RAF99 recommends having at least $3k before thinking about an H22 and that's why I shy away from that option.

Entertaining the idea of a shop, what sort of things would I have to make sure they do to make sure its done right?

A lot of people have said, "you have a f22a1 in your car now, why would you swap it for another one?" Coming into this as a noob, I thought that's what you do? When an engine is old/bad you replace it with the same one that is new/good. I am getting lost on why this is such a bad idea.

And what do you mean by not swapping for an engine that is abused? Why are f22a and f22b singled out? Are h22's not abused?

Can you please clarify?

[sonikaccord]

Thanks! And thanks for the link. Looking at that link, RAF99 recommends having at least $3k before thinking about an H22 and that's why I shy away from that option.

Entertaining the idea of a shop, what sort of things would I have to make sure they do to make sure its done right?

A lot of people have said, "you have a f22a1 in your car now, why would you swap it for another one?" Coming into this as a noob, I thought that's what you do? When an engine is old/bad you replace it with the same one that is new/good. I am getting lost on why this is such a bad idea.

And what do you mean by not swapping for an engine that is abused? Why are f22a and f22b singled out? Are h22's not abused?

Can you please clarify?

You would want the shop to do all of the maintenance things such as timing belt, water pump, new oil seals, manual tensioner, etc. so it's good for another 60k+ miles.

There is nothing necessarily "wrong" with swapping your same engine, but for the price of swapping, you could rebuild it and have a brand new engine instead of a new used engine UNLESS you can swap it yourself. Then its just the cost of the engine plus time on your end.

A compression test tells you if your engine has good compression. A cylinder with low compression is bad and the whole engine is typically rebuilt.

You don't know the previous status on the engine you're planning swapping. H22s are usually imported from low mileage japanese cars which have less of a chance of being abused versus our usdm h22a2 from the prelude which may also have 150K+ miles.

People rebuild transmissions if they have shredded gears, syncros, or otherwise just can't shift the trans anymore.

Anything can be rebuilt.

When I start my first engine build, I'm definitely sticking with my F22a. It's really underused and underrated in the honda world. And it's a tank.

[XCRN]

People do not usually put another F22A in since the engine is out why not upgrade while it is out, unless the plan is boost, lots of people use this engine to boost but have it out to work on the internals. Like stated above, if you have an F22A or F22BX for free and need to have the car running as soon as possible, do it. F22B#s are not very good on performance and does not go to well with boost like the F22A does so no point to it.

The F22B (not an F22B#) is the Japanese equivalent to the USDM H23A1 found in the Preludes, and those cars it is assumed the previous driver of the engine ran it hard, no way of knowing, but is likely.

Beat me to it by 3 minutes.

[MrMagnificent]

I think they are saying to pick the h22 just because it's a better engine in all aspects.

It will set you back quite a bit even if you were to overhaul your f22. So the h22 wouldn't hurt that much more.

But while your f22 still runs you can take the time to buy your h22 and while you have it you can leisurely nit pick at every aspect of the motor to make sure it's in peak condition before install.

And if you take the time to completely overhaul it yourself when it comes time to remove your old tired f22 installing the h22 would be a snap.

[Joey GT-R]

What I'm not understanding, and the question that has yet to be asked is, "What's wrong with the car currently?".

You say you want to keep it automatic and back in near new condition. So why are you even considering upgrades(you talked about boost and naturally aspirated upgrades)?

You say you know what you want, but by subtle details, I'm not sure you really know yet.

If your automatic transmission shifts fine leave it alone. If it leaks, fix the leak. If it needs a torque converter, then replace it.

Have you done compression and leak down tests on your current engine? If that all checks out, why bother? If it leaks oil, change the seals. If you need a tune up, then do that.

If all that is in order, what else if any is out of wack? Do you need the A/C system restored? How's the interior? What about brakes and suspension? How's the paint and body?

These are generally the concerns of someone who wants to "restore a car" versus what I believe will eventually to turn out to be the "need for speed" bug.

Just my two cents.

[deevergote]

I suggest you start using the edit button. Posting three times in a row will get your thread deleted.


Anyway, taking the breakdown from that H22 swap thread you posted:
Red means unnecessary. Yellow means recommended but not always needed.

Motor Swap Costs:

92-96 Prelude Helms Manual-free from cb7tuner member (don't pay for this) Accord Wiring harness (for the extra pins needed)$5.00 via cb7tuner member.
Apexi VAFC version one-$150 from importatlanta.com member
heat shrink tubing $1.50 from Lowes
jdm h22a w/ lsd-$2461 from Pacific Engine Company in Chamblee-Tucker, GA
stainless steel header from megan racing-$175.00
shipped stainless steel high flow cat, or resonated test pipe, from megan racing-$90.95 shipped
apexi world sport 1 catback-$400
aem short ram intake(polished)-$115.00
auto to manual tensioner conversion parts from majestic-about $130.00 shipped
exedy (daikin) stock replacement clutch kit from clutch city online-$119.00 shipped
Mobil one synthetic 10w-30 oil and filter-$40.00
auto wire (18 AWG) from radio shack and solder-$5.00
replacement tools for ones broken various ways- about $30.00
replacement rotor cap, button, plug wires, plugs-$75.00(ngk on plugs and wires, wells on cap/button)
water pump new-$60.00
oem timing belt and tranny fluid from honda dealer-$80.00
balance belt and a/c/alt. belt-$25.00(if going w/o power steering, get a 43 1/2" w/ four groove.)
refurb axles w/ lifetime warranty-$130.00
dot 3 brake fluid to brake and clutch cylinders-$5.00
replacement hoses for heater/vacuum, and hose fittings, connectors-$15.00
battery box and connectors/wiring to move battery to trunk, making room for lude short ram-$30.00
mechanix gloves(recommended to save hands from cuts/stabs)-$20.00
antifreeze(50/50)-$7.00
good elec. tape-$8.00($4.00 a roll)
plastic loom to replace old loom on harness-$8.00
tranny fluid spout-$2.00 from wal-mart
fluid tray(generic for pourin all old fluids into)-$3.00 misc.
bolts I lost-$5.00 from pull-a-part

You can get away with half that stuff listed, and he paid for an LSD transmission with his engine. You could even use your Accord transmission to save money.

[honda2014]

Why do you want another engine? Is it simply for peace of mind? Does yours run badly? The f22a's in our cars are known to last over 500k miles as long as they are maintained. You could possibly be overdue for engine maintenance, but your motor may be save-able. As for wanting to rebuild your transmission, I wouldn't mess with rebuilding an automatic transmission. For what (little) I know, automatics are pretty difficult to rebuild, are quite complicated to their standard counterparts, and they are still slow and boring. Of course, that is only my opinion, but I would stay away from rebuilding an automatic. I say either get an auto swap, or swap to a manual.

As for what engine you want/need: Don't get an H22 engine if your only goal is to "restore" the car and turn back time a few years. It's a Premium fuel, 10.5(may be a little off) compression, performance motor. It is overkill, and will be on your wallet too.

I also noticed you said turbo. Lots of people, myself included, throw turbo around too much. Stay away from it for now.. Your short term project to get your car running better should not entertain an idea that is a long term investment, as well as (what should be) a serious project.

I say rebuild your f22a, and keep your transmission or swap for a manual one if yours is giving you problems. If you have thousands of dollars that can be readily spent, you MAY want to get an H22. But please, if you get a performance engine, get a manual transmission. It's kinda like seeing a corvette with an automatic transmission. Sure, it looks cool, it sounds good, and girls like it. But if going fast is your prerogative, get a manual.

You need to evaluate how much money you can spend, as well as what your needs are, compared to your wants. But, if you do upgrade your motor to a more powerful one, definitely swap your automatic.

[mrstix]

What I'm not understanding, and the question that has yet to be asked is, "What's wrong with the car currently?".

You say you want to keep it automatic and back in near new condition. So why are you even considering upgrades(you talked about boost and naturally aspirated upgrades)?

You say you know what you want, but by subtle details, I'm not sure you really know yet.

If your automatic transmission shifts fine leave it alone. If it leaks, fix the leak. If it needs a torque converter, then replace it.

Have you done compression and leak down tests on your current engine? If that all checks out, why bother? If it leaks oil, change the seals. If you need a tune up, then do that.

If all that is in order, what else if any is out of wack? Do you need the A/C system restored? How's the interior? What about brakes and suspension? How's the paint and body?

These are generally the concerns of someone who wants to "restore a car" versus what I believe will eventually to turn out to be the "need for speed" bug.

Just my two cents.

I'm glad you asked! And you are absolutely right, I am not 100% sure what I want yet. This car is not my daily driver, my Fit is. I want this car to be a backup car that will become my daily after the engine and tranny are back to 100%. To be honest, I don't know if I will want to get more performance out of it and am trying very hard to not put the cart before the horse, but I can't help thinking that getting a good working F22a is a good idea because it CAN be upgraded later after I am done with everything else. For starting out though, it seems like it will be the least expensive option to get me off the ground and running.

As far as what is wrong with the car: The engine is developing a slight knock. The tranny shifts a little hard but is still decent. I also have a hard time getting the shifter out of Park. I kind of have to muscle it out and don't know what that means.

The a/c works and blows cold, but I feel like its not very powerful. I have to keep it on 4 to really get it going and I wish it just pumped out more air at all levels. Power steering is in and out. I am sure it is leaking. Someone said it was my rack and pinion which was recently replaced. Could be a bad part, idk.

Brakes and suspension seem ok, but I could just be used to the car. Interior needs attention like leaks from windshield/driver's side door. I can hear air from the passenger window when I drive on the highway.

With all that said, I am trying to get my priorities straight and get this car, that I love, running smooth and purring. Drive it while I fix the rest and really find a new appreciation for it.

After she's smooth, then I might look into performance. The most I can honestly say I would do in the meantime is an exhaust and maybe an intake.

Why do you want another engine? Is it simply for peace of mind? Does yours run badly? The f22a's in our cars are known to last over 500k miles as long as they are maintained. You could possibly be overdue for engine maintenance, but your motor may be save-able. As for wanting to rebuild your transmission, I wouldn't mess with rebuilding an automatic transmission. For what (little) I know, automatics are pretty difficult to rebuild, are quite complicated to their standard counterparts, and they are still slow and boring. Of course, that is only my opinion, but I would stay away from rebuilding an automatic. I say either get an auto swap, or swap to a manual.

As for what engine you want/need: Don't get an H22 engine if your only goal is to "restore" the car and turn back time a few years. It's a Premium fuel, 10.5(may be a little off) compression, performance motor. It is overkill, and will be on your wallet too.

I also noticed you said turbo. Lots of people, myself included, throw turbo around too much. Stay away from it for now.. Your short term project to get your car running better should not entertain an idea that is a long term investment, as well as (what should be) a serious project.

I say rebuild your f22a, and keep your transmission or swap for a manual one if yours is giving you problems. If you have thousands of dollars that can be readily spent, you MAY want to get an H22. But please, if you get a performance engine, get a manual transmission. It's kinda like seeing a corvette with an automatic transmission. Sure, it looks cool, it sounds good, and girls like it. But if going fast is your prerogative, get a manual.

You need to evaluate how much money you can spend, as well as what your needs are, compared to your wants. But, if you do upgrade your motor to a more powerful one, definitely swap your automatic.

Thank you, honda2014. I think you are helping me put it in perspective. Based on what you said, an H22 is not what I'm looking for. I will try to refrain from throwing turbo around. I have not started looking at transmissions yet, and I think that may be the one "shortcut" I take and to just get a swap like you suggested. I am intent on keeping it auto so I guess that also means I am intent on not going fast, lol.

Rebuilding is what I'm hearing all around me. Hmm, something tells me that might be the way to go, lol. I will ask my uncle if he still has the tools to take the engine out/apart and see if he might be willing to help. Thanks everyone for your continued input.

To deever, sorry for the earlier back to back posts. Sorry for the the vtec(h). Thanks for not deleting my thread again.

[sonikaccord]

Things you should do:

Transmission flush
Tune-up
R134a conversion and recharge, clean out blower system
Power steering leak you will just have to find and repair/replace
Door and window gaskets

[deevergote]

Don't "flush" the transmission. Drain and fill only.

[mrstix]

Talked to my uncle who has been working on cars for a long time and has the tools and space. He said he would be up for helping me, but not until after winter

Until then, I will look into getting a replacement automatic transmission. I already looked at hmotorsonline and found an automatic tranny as an add on option for an f22a ($250) but it also says sold out. I wonder if they are sold separately...

I plan to start the car every few days, replace the tail light gaskets, buy a generic car cover and just leave it til after winter. I wish I could do more, but the motor/tranny comes first.