CB7Tuner Forums

Go Back   CB7Tuner Forums > Beginner forum -- New members post here! > Beginner Technical/Performance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-31-2018, 05:48 AM   #1
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
F22B/H23 head vs F22A?

I've seen others swap F22B and H23 DOHC heads on there F22A blocks. Is there is significant power increase in doing so? I've heard the SOHC F22A actually flows better than most other Honda DOHC's
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2018, 07:35 AM   #2
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 35,895
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
The F22A head flows very well when properly ported. Stock, it’s not all that special.

The F22B DOHC head is the most direct and reliable head swap option, and should be good for maybe 15hp over the F22A6. That’s with the proper ecu and manifolds to go with it. The F22B DOHC has higher compression than the F22A (9.3:1 vs 8.8:1), though im not sure if that increase comes from the head, pistons, or a combination of the two. If the pistons are the same as those in the F22A, then the gain will be closer to 20hp.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2018, 10:09 AM   #3
GhostAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East Coast 506 Canada
Posts: 2,526
GhostAccord seems to have made some friends! GhostAccord seems to have made some friends!
The increase in compression between the F22A/F22B DOHC is the piston. From what I have seen the H23A1 Non VTEC, F22A1-6 and F22B DOHC, F22B1-2 combustion chambers are the same volume. it is only the VTEC P13 & P5M heads that have a smaller combustion chamber.


As far as flow goes, the F22B1-2 and F23A1-5 castings flow better out of the box than any of the DOHC versions. The PT3 F22A1-6 head casting flows just shy of the aforementioned SOHC F series heads. Minor porting is required in order for it to easily outflow the SOHC F22B series heads. The only real bonus to the DOHC is the ability to adjust the intake and exhaust cams individually. That being said, there are SOHC camsharf grinds that can be suited to whatever goals you are looking to achieve.

What are your goals, maximum cylinder head port CFM, actual power or a low budget build with the best out of the box head?
__________________
MR Thread
GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

by Chappy, on Flickr
GhostAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2018, 07:04 PM   #4
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostAccord View Post
What are your goals, maximum cylinder head port CFM, actual power or a low budget build with the best out of the box head?
Yeah, that last one lol. Mild N/A set up, daily driven, MAYBE ITB's. Was thinking about just shaving the head for more comp. but unsure how much could be taken off before things like quench area become a issue. Would rather not rip into the block to upgrade pistons as I know once I'm in there I'll start replacing everything, and need to keep things in budget
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2018, 07:55 AM   #5
GhostAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East Coast 506 Canada
Posts: 2,526
GhostAccord seems to have made some friends! GhostAccord seems to have made some friends!
In that case the F22B DOHC would probably be your best bet. Same combustion chamber diameter so there would be no issues with a lip around the head. The Honda shop manual states 0.2mm (0.008) for the limit of head surfacing. That would only get you from 8.8:1 to 8.9:1 compression ratio. You would have to remove 1.62mm (0.064) to bump the compression up to 10:1.

I'm sure you can do more than the Honda specified 0.2mm and get away with it. However, I've never tried myself so I'm not one to speak on specifics on how far you can go before you start messing with clearance issues. I'm sure someone else could chime in on that.
__________________
MR Thread
GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

by Chappy, on Flickr
GhostAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2018, 09:54 AM   #6
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Looks like thats the head I'll be going with then. Now to figure out if I want to hassle with ITB's...
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2018, 12:33 PM   #7
Bunta
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas,Arizona and Massachusetts
Posts: 224
Bunta is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB7Xhris View Post
Looks like thats the head I'll be going with then. Now to figure out if I want to hassle with ITB's...

For a daily driver it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. It takes a GOOD tuner to make them work correctly and for a mild setup as you described it wouldn't even take full advantage of them. A single plenum manifold is better for drivability and it is easier to work with both in tuning and in related parts.
Bunta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:36 AM   #8
KBA
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Latvia
Posts: 41
KBA is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
The F22A head flows very well when properly ported. Stock, itís not all that special.
Well actually, I would not be so sure. I have messed around the F22A stock head in 3D CAD and the impression I have so far is that the cam is the reason why F22A is not that special stock. The head flows remarkably well even stock. Just clean out the rough casting debris and it flows a lot better. Drop in bigger valves with proper seat work and it will outflow anything. Of course, this is all theoretical and some will argue that in real life it's different. I will not go any further as my own head is still in preparation and will be for a good while since my pockets are only so deep.

What seems interesting to me is that at least visually, the PT3 F22A and F22B DOHC non-vtec ports look nearly identical. I wonder if they have used the same casting components...
KBA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 07:09 AM   #9
KBA
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Latvia
Posts: 41
KBA is cool... so far.
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostAccord View Post
The only real bonus to the DOHC is the ability to adjust the intake and exhaust cams individually.
Ghost, I always find it funny how people claim DOHC is so much superior and only mention this specific property ... The funny fact is that DOHC lovers practically never adjust their cams at all. I only know one guy that adjusts his cams here locally, he happens to be a moto-GP rider and has all the dial indicators for the job. Still people do not realize it takes adjustable gears to do that. In my opinion the only real advantage for average people is the looks while they pop the hood. For engineers - it's a different story. Yes, DOHC gives you better valve control, yes it decreases the requirements for valve springs. Yes it allows for all sorts of fancy mechanisms like VTEC. To be honest, DOHC is really an advantage only if you are playing serious. And even then the number of cams is not the most important thing, it's the overall geometry and design. The cam has to have a big base circle for aggressive profiles, the finger followers or tappets have to support that, the springs have to support the lift and be short enough not to push the ports down and so on. There are plenty examples where SOHC performs just as well even in hardcore racing environment. Take the Honda CRF MX bike as example. It has never lacked the power or potential, yet it's smaller, lighter and easier to work with. It is the ignorance of dull people that demands DOHC in the market so it is being delivered whether beneficial or not.
KBA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 06:57 PM   #10
GhostAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East Coast 506 Canada
Posts: 2,526
GhostAccord seems to have made some friends! GhostAccord seems to have made some friends!
KBA, did you read the OP's original question? He wants the best bang for the buck out of a stock head on a budget build. Not some hardcore SOHC racing application. But thanks for the lesson on 1990's tech.
__________________
MR Thread
GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

by Chappy, on Flickr

Last edited by GhostAccord; 04-04-2018 at 05:24 PM.
GhostAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 09:06 PM   #11
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Those ports....they beautiful... lol
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 11:27 PM   #12
KBA
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Latvia
Posts: 41
KBA is cool... so far.
In order not to disrespect the OP further, my post was irrelevant, my mistake and apologies. It was by no way meant to flame on anyone.

Ghost, you have a PM.
KBA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 02:17 AM   #13
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 7,023
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
You will probably get more from the H23/F22A6 hybrid intake, a ground cam, and full exhaust. Hell you can skip the cam and run all that on a stock PT6 ECU. I had that setup back in the day and it was glorious
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 03:08 AM   #14
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
You will probably get more from the H23/F22A6 hybrid intake
More info on this? I got a lead on a H23 upper intake for cheap
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 08:20 AM   #15
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 7,023
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
There should be something in the DIY section. You will need the EX ECU and a pin out to connect to the IM if you don't have an EX/SE from what I remember. But even on my EX I felt huge butt dyno gains from just swapping the plenum.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2018, 07:04 AM   #16
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
There should be something in the DIY section. You will need the EX ECU and a pin out to connect to the IM if you don't have an EX/SE from what I remember. But even on my EX I felt huge butt dyno gains from just swapping the plenum.
Well I bought the H23 plenum. The write up is alittle hard to follow for me without the photos (call it a learning disability lol). By putting the plenum on the a6 runners, you dont have to use the butterflys right?
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2018, 09:07 AM   #17
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,177
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
You should still use the butterflies (called IABs for Idle Air Bypass valves). You already have the electronic hardware in place if you have an F22A6.

It will give you more plenum volume, and give you the flexibility to eliminate a couple of things like the FITV (Fast Idle Thermo Valve) and ABV (Air Boost Valve).

The H23A1/H22A plenum puts the ABV that was originally on the side of the manifold in the place where the FITV was previously. The FITV is then moved to the bottom of the throttle body. The throttle body of the F22A doesot share the same pattern as the H23A1/H22A, so a matching one must be sourced when doing this mod. Luckily, it's the same pattern as every F/H-series engine after the CB, as well as the B/D-series engines. The early Accord F-series engines seem to be the oddball bolt pattern. One can source a new aftermarket throttle body that has coolant ports through the bottom of the throttle body as a means of eliminating the FITV, or one can source an OEM throttle body that has the FITV attached and plumb it just like factory. Just make sure your plenum opening and throttle body closely match.

Also, the JDM intake manifolds had block-off plates for the ABV. You can buy one of those, or you can buy an aftermarket billet part. There's also the option of leaving it alone like it was intended.

Hope that clears things up.
__________________
My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2018, 09:46 AM   #18
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 7,023
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
I feel like a side by side picture would be clearer lol.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2018, 11:55 PM   #19
CB7Xhris
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 32
CB7Xhris is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
I feel like a side by side picture would be clearer lol.
lol
CB7Xhris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.