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    Any Other Forged Piston Options?

    My future goal is to get a reliable 300whp with a F22a1 (plus the a6 conversion and h23 intake).
    I'm wondering, are there any other options besides thousand dollar Wiseco internals to replace the weak stock ringlands?

    I saw some talk online about putting in cheaper 87mm H22a pistons and eagle rods in, but that means boring out the block, and some thought that was risky without sleeving the block. How much would it cost to have a shop bore to 87mm anyways?

    Also saw something about getting stock pistons from some DSM vehicle.

    I'm very new to all this, and this is definitely going to be down the road, but I want to do my research now and know what I'm doing when I do it. And I definitely want reliability. I'm willing to save up a couple hundred more to do it "properly". Also I want to know what size turbo would be ideal for that power goal, I want quick spooling.

    (PS. Ignore my signature LOL)
    Last edited by GTRON; 04-12-2017, 10:36 AM.
    I'm faster then a prius

    #2
    Look up DSM pistons with H rods and crank. The engine is the 4g63. It depends on the shop for prices. Make sure you give them your rotating assembly before you just have them bore it.

    You can use the diamond sport manifold and turbo too if you do choose.
    Last edited by F22Chris; 04-12-2017, 12:53 PM.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by F22Chris View Post
      Look up DSM pistons with H rods and crank. The engine is the 4g63. It depends on the shop for prices. Make sure you give them your rotating assembly before you just have them bore it.

      You can use the diamond sport manifold and turbo too if you do choose.
      I'll look into that. I would really prefer not to have to bore my block out, and at that point I'd probably just go with Wiseco pistons, just not worth the hassle for me.

      Would these work in a f22 ? They're 85mm, I would need H rods then?

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-92-Eclips...-/281284541886

      Thanks so much for the help.
      I'm faster then a prius

      Comment


        #4
        This thread..... http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...t=21173&page=2
        I'm faster then a prius

        Comment


          #5
          I got a set of 89mm Wiseco pistons for my F22 and H22 Carrillo Pro A connecting rods for $1200 shipped from the boys at Race Engineering.com give them a ring and let them know what you are looking for.

          not sure where you are seeing $1000 for a set of pistons.
          MR Thread
          GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

          by Chappy, on Flickr

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by GhostAccord View Post
            I got a set of 89mm Wiseco pistons for my F22 and H22 Carrillo Pro A connecting rods for $1200 shipped from the boys at Race Engineering.com give them a ring and let them know what you are looking for.

            not sure where you are seeing $1000 for a set of pistons.

            It might have seen piston and rod packages then?
            Rods won't be completely necessary for 300whp would it?

            I'll check them out!
            I'm faster then a prius

            Comment


              #7
              Say I get forged pistons, ARP head studs, engine is otherwise healthy. How much power will the engine be able to handle? 400-500? I know it all depends on a million factors, including tune and such, but ballpark guesses on just pistons and head studs?

              And what size turbo should I be looking at? I don't think I'd even want to push over 400hp, that's scary, and stuff starts breaking after that.
              I'm faster then a prius

              Comment


                #8
                The pistons in the link are not the ones you want. You want pistons that have a 28.7mm compression height. The pistons are usually referred to as "100mm stroker" or "2.3L" pistons in the DSM world. Those pistons, combined with the H22A rods that are 1.5mm longer, will improve your rod ratio while giving you an affordable aftermarket alternative. They will require the use of H22A-length connecting rods, though. Not a bad time to go aftermarket. Eagle rods are cheap enough.

                Also, I would say that you would be very unwise not to bore this engine. Fitting any new pistons that are machined to be round in an engine that has thousands of miles on the cylinder walls will be a recipe for poor tolerances. Combine that with the fact that the new pistons are forged with different thermal expansion properties, and you're going to have an engine that wears out very quickly.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by GTRON View Post

                  It might have seen piston and rod packages then?
                  Rods won't be completely necessary for 300whp would it?

                  I'll check them out!
                  The rod/piston package is what I linked to in the thread you posted in the other day, so that may have been what you saw. $1200 for the package isn't cheap, but it's a fair price for quality. GhostAccord is also in Canada. At the moment (at least the last time I looked, the Canadian dollar was about 75% the strength of the American dollar... so unless he did a conversion, his deal would've been about $800 for you. I do believe it's somewhere in the $1100-$1200 ballpark, though.

                  If you're going turbo, rods aren't absolutely necessary. The compressive stress of turbo is far less abusive to rods than the tensile stress of high RPM (as in high performance naturally aspirated small displacement engines.) However, modification is necessary to make factory rods work with aftermarket pistons. The factory setup uses a pressed-in wrist pin, whereas aftermarket performance stuff uses a floating wrist pin. It IS possible to modify the stock stuff to work (I believe wed3k posted about it a while back), but such modifications performed by someone inexperienced could be a recipe for disaster. If something fails and you put a piston into your head, you'll be out a lot more money than you would have been had you just bought compatible aftermarket rods in the first place! I

                  Originally posted by GTRON View Post
                  Say I get forged pistons, ARP head studs, engine is otherwise healthy. How much power will the engine be able to handle? 400-500? I know it all depends on a million factors, including tune and such, but ballpark guesses on just pistons and head studs?

                  And what size turbo should I be looking at? I don't think I'd even want to push over 400hp, that's scary, and stuff starts breaking after that.
                  The general rule of thumb is that the factory open-deck block should hold up to 400hp without needing reinforcement (with the use of forged pistons, of course.) I'm sure it can be pushed beyond that, just as I'm sure it's entirely possible for it to fail well below that... but if you use quality components, build everything carefully and correctly, and have the ECU tuned properly, 400hp SHOULD be safe on stock sleeves.

                  Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                  The pistons in the link are not the ones you want. You want pistons that have a 28.7mm compression height. The pistons are usually referred to as "100mm stroker" or "2.3L" pistons in the DSM world. Those pistons, combined with the H22A rods that are 1.5mm longer, will improve your rod ratio while giving you an affordable aftermarket alternative. They will require the use of H22A-length connecting rods, though. Not a bad time to go aftermarket. Eagle rods are cheap enough.

                  Also, I would say that you would be very unwise not to bore this engine. Fitting any new pistons that are machined to be round in an engine that has thousands of miles on the cylinder walls will be a recipe for poor tolerances. Combine that with the fact that the new pistons are forged with different thermal expansion properties, and you're going to have an engine that wears out very quickly.
                  Would you suggest a full 1mm overbore? A slight bore to ensure the cylinders are perfectly round is a no-brainer, but I'd be nervous to make the 25 year old stock cylinder walls any thinner than necessary!

                  Also, wasn't it you that determined Bisimoto's shelf pistons were nothing more than 4G63 pistons?






                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                    Would you suggest a full 1mm overbore? A slight bore to ensure the cylinders are perfectly round is a no-brainer, but I'd be nervous to make the 25 year old stock cylinder walls any thinner than necessary!

                    Also, wasn't it you that determined Bisimoto's shelf pistons were nothing more than 4G63 pistons?

                    I don't know that it was only me. If you look at piston specs long enough, you could see pretty clearly what Bisi was doing. I just wish he hadn't been so shady about it. He still had a really good price on them! He could have screamed from the mountain tops that they were Wiseco forged pistons sourced from a different application (instead of saying they were custom-made to his specs) and the rods were off-brand H22A rods made in China. Those usually have ARP studs in them, too! Good ones, at that! You still couldn't have touched his price if you had that information. It was unnecessary lying.

                    The full 1mm overbore isn't necessary. That's just what you'll mostly find these pistons in, instead of 85.5mm.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                      The pistons in the link are not the ones you want. You want pistons that have a 28.7mm compression height. The pistons are usually referred to as "100mm stroker" or "2.3L" pistons in the DSM world. Those pistons, combined with the H22A rods that are 1.5mm longer, will improve your rod ratio while giving you an affordable aftermarket alternative. They will require the use of H22A-length connecting rods, though. Not a bad time to go aftermarket. Eagle rods are cheap enough.

                      Also, I would say that you would be very unwise not to bore this engine. Fitting any new pistons that are machined to be round in an engine that has thousands of miles on the cylinder walls will be a recipe for poor tolerances. Combine that with the fact that the new pistons are forged with different thermal expansion properties, and you're going to have an engine that wears out very quickly.
                      Does anyone make 85mm forged pistons for the F22a1, or would that DSM piston with the H22A rod combo work?
                      My goal is to not take the block out of the car to install the internals, and for these pistons to bolt right up without any serious custom work, if that's possible.

                      This is my inspiration video
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLfS2ESXEE
                      This guy's car was still running great two years later after drag racing pushing 500+ Horsepower. So I think the guy knows what he's doin, LOL.

                      I thought if you're using the same size pistons to replace stock ones, you just had to "hone" the cylinder walls a bit? (Learned this in the video)

                      Thanks for bearing with my beginner questions, I really appreciate it! My goal is to do this cheap and reliable, I want to keep the cost of the whole deal around $2000 (probably acquiring some used stuff to save money). I priced out forged pistons, ARP head studs, S300 from Hondata, and most of the little other things, and it was close to 2k. Then I'll have to account for $400 for a tune, gosh this stuff adds up. I'm working on a turbo fund right now, and I
                      'm hoping to work hard this summer and save up the rest I need for everything.
                      Last edited by GTRON; 04-13-2017, 11:44 PM.
                      I'm faster then a prius

                      Comment


                        #12
                        https://www.raceeng.com/p-31047-wise...t-526p85r.aspx

                        Would these work with stock rods? Even though the compression ratio is higher?

                        If I can get 85mm pistons to work with the stock rods, that's the goal.

                        Are ARP head studs a need for 300-400 HP?
                        I'm faster then a prius

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You will never find aftermarket forged pistons that are directly compatible with stock rods. I highly advise against taking that risk.

                          Keep in mind that regardless of what pistons you get, you're still going to need a machine shop to clean up your block. As Jarrett said, the stock bores may not be wholly round anymore (not visibly warped, but stuff happens in 25 years!) 85mm pistons may be too small if some material is removed. 85.5mm might be the best route. Minimal material removal, but enough to ensure a perfect fit. Just dropping your old stuff out of the block and popping new stuff in there is not a viable option, sadly.

                          ARP studs are a good idea any time you plan on doing something that increases internal stress. The stock bolts (which you would need to replace with new anyway) are designed to stretch a bit. That could very easily lead to a blown head gasket when higher than stock stress is introduced. Go for the ARP.

                          One thing you simply cannot do with a turbo engine is overbuild. Build this engine to handle 100hp more than you intend on making, at the very least. That way, you're not going to be running it to the ragged edge.






                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                            You will never find aftermarket forged pistons that are directly compatible with stock rods. I highly advise against taking that risk.

                            Keep in mind that regardless of what pistons you get, you're still going to need a machine shop to clean up your block. As Jarrett said, the stock bores may not be wholly round anymore (not visibly warped, but stuff happens in 25 years!) 85mm pistons may be too small if some material is removed. 85.5mm might be the best route. Minimal material removal, but enough to ensure a perfect fit. Just dropping your old stuff out of the block and popping new stuff in there is not a viable option, sadly.

                            ARP studs are a good idea any time you plan on doing something that increases internal stress. The stock bolts (which you would need to replace with new anyway) are designed to stretch a bit. That could very easily lead to a blown head gasket when higher than stock stress is introduced. Go for the ARP.

                            One thing you simply cannot do with a turbo engine is overbuild. Build this engine to handle 100hp more than you intend on making, at the very least. That way, you're not going to be running it to the ragged edge.
                            Sounds like I just need to do pistons and rods at the same time... I guess that would be building it to handle more anyways, right? haha
                            Are you sure it needs to be bored out if I am replacing with stock sized pistons, is it really the "only" way to do it? I'm doubtful, because from what I've researched, dropping in stock sized internals are fine for the cylinder walls, if they're in good condition and straight that is.

                            Where would I find 85mm or 85.5mm pistons and rods for the best price? As inexpensive as possible
                            I'm faster then a prius

                            Comment


                              #15
                              How are you going to know if they're truly round? Your eyes won't tell you. You need a dial bore indicator to measure at three different points at three different elevations through the bore to take an average.

                              Not to mention, the thermal expansion properties of a forged piston are slightly different than your 30 year-old OEM cast piston. Just popping that thing in the bore, then subjecting it to the higher heat of a turbocharged application is not wise. I'm not saying it won't run. It may even run for a few thousand miles. But it's not the correct way of doing things.

                              What is your reason for not wanting to pull the block? The number of people that will tell you that's an acceptable method for rebuilding an engine for boost is a lot smaller than those who wouldn't.
                              My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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