Honda needs a production v8

[AccordWarrior]

You didn't say anything about highway mileage, so I was clarifying.

And I have run into not a few domestic guys that try to pretend their car gets maximum highway mileage everywhere.

Came across a guy with a Challenger R/T that I complimented at the car wash, and all he did was give me a snicker and say "yeah, it gets 30MPG too." I didn't have the heart to tell him my Si got that when I was in the city.

Had another guy tell me that recently as well with another similar performance domestic to our 13 Accord. Didn't have the heart to tell him that our Accord routinely tops 35MPG on the highway and has seen well over 40MPG.

I got 27 MPG in my STi once, with the cruise pegged at exactly 65 MPH on a full highway trip. It's a 2.5L 4-cyl.

Boom. Hypermiling, y0.

[cb7 calling]

I feel like taking this way back onto topic. Right now could be the perfect time for a production v8 from Honda. In this age of turbo everything even Ferrari Honda is capable of putting the period on the n/a age.
They would need to market against basically used ferraris, and Porsche gt3 and the fastest n/a around Nurembergring the viper acr. This car would be all about the motor, highest specific output per liter n/a ever, 9500 plus rpm standard transmission two wheel drive. I think it would take approximately 4.4 liters a little more maybe. It would need enough liters to give it enough horsepower to be the fastest n/a production vehicle around Nuremberg. Still key hp per liter needs to be the best ever in a production car.
The car itself basically a race car. s2000 ish but big enough to hold the motor and hardtop only. When I say s2000 I mostly mean fit and finish quality, maybe even civic si or type r interior. Not looks, but cost. 30,000 dollar motor 30,000 dollar car. Priced like Godzilla.
One year before release the first marketing campaign is commercials with three second shots of it crossing the finish line at tracks all over the world including a drag strip ahead of ferraris and the like. With no sound and words stating things like, 100,000 mile warranty, tune up prices and intervals ect.
Next after these ran for three months the commercials would show people tuning their ferraris to be as fast as the Honda. That's the name just Honda, or The Honda, or The type r.So Ferrari owners are putting on carbon fiber hoods, fart cans, coilovers,NOS and snails. Sorry prancing horses a Ferrari to fu conversion parts will not be available.FU (that's the engine moniker). Putting a radar detector in a Ferrari cost $10,000. Engine mounts cost more than a whole type r. That's what the commercial says anyhow and if it's on tv it's true.
The day of release full sound video on a race track and the words on screen. Honda motor company, thanks for playing.
I have hoped Honda would build a motor like this for sometime, likely since I saw the specs on the first b16 sir motor. I doubt I am the only Honda fan who has had this cross their mind and to what I think is a large group of people who buy cars a car like that could have an impact on the brand.
Kind of a large scale version of me beating mustang gt's in my swapped civic.
To some of us that's what Honda is all about.
The question to me really isn't is now the time, more like any day now.....

[deevergote]

It's the Nürburgring, in Nürburg, Germany. Nuremburg is 4 hours Southeast of Nürburg.


There has been some speculation about a MR car being built on the new NSX chassis. No fancy electric motors, probably no turbos. I assume it would likely get a souped-up version of one of Honda's current V6 engines. That would be a good candidate for what you describe. A small-displacement N/A V8 would work well... I could see a high-revving 4.0L, like the E90/E92/E93 M3 had. I feel anything larger than 4.0L would be brutish in a Honda.
I disagree with it being all about the engine, though. Especially if you want it to be fast around the track. That's more about suspension, weight balance, and overall vehicle dynamics than it is about a beastly engine. Having a buttload of horsepower certainly helps... but power production isn't really a big problem. Efficient power production is something Honda has always been quite good at.

The new NSX is possibly going to be priced within competitive range of Godzilla, at least in Nismo trim. The base GTR has an MSRP of over $100,000 now, so that's still in a fairly unobtainable range. Anything priced over $100,000 is likely going to cannibalize the new NSX's sales. If Honda releases anything to compete at half the price range (which is where I believe the rumored NSX-derived car is supposed to be slotted), it would need to do two things... 1) not come anywhere NEAR the NSX's level of performance, and 2) be inexpensive enough to design and produce to be worthwhile.
Point #1 will limit the car's potential, because why would anyone shell out $160,000 for an NSX when they could drop half that on a simpler car that performs as well? Honda would have to purposely engineer the car to offer less potential.
Point #2 is what kills it, sadly. To make this car, Honda would have to develop a completely new production engine. That right there would cost an absolute fortune. Then they would need to build a car worthy of using it, as simply dropping a V8 in a chassis built for a V6 would likely introduce all sorts of balance issues that shouldn't be present in an expensive performance car (and even at half the NSX's price, it will still be an expensive performance car!)
Plus, MOST performance cars are not the company's bread-and-butter. Most likely aren't even very profitable. I bet Honda ends up taking a loss on the new NSX, honestly. Performance cars are used to showcase technology, proclaim "top tier" status, and to participate in the everlasting pissing contest between car manufacturers. If it's not a Miata, Corvette, or pony car, it's PROBABLY not making the manufacturer a ton of money.



The only way Honda is likely to develop a V8 is if they see a need to incorporate it into their regular production lineup. With Hyundai (Genesis and Equuus), Kia (K900), Toyota (GS, LS, RC, and various trucks), and Nissan (trucks, and whatever they're calling their V8 powered luxury Infiniti these days...) all offering large V8 powered luxury vehicles, Honda would have a better shot at entering that particular market with a V8. A V8 powered truck could follow. Only then would it be reasonable for them to develop a V8 powered performance car, I feel.
Hell, if you notice... even the brands I mentioned with existing V8s hardly have any V8-powered performance cars! Only Toyota has ventured into that realm, and their success with them has been limited.

[cb7 calling]

Nurburgring, nurburgring, nuuuurbuuuurgring. I can't do it.
The nsx is going to compete with top tier super cars that cost $800,000 and up which incorporate hybrid technology and the latest everything. We do not have performance figures yet but I'm leaning toward close enough to a Porsche 918, la ferrari, and p1 for somebody who normally rides in the back seat to work to not know the difference.
I'm proposing a 458 , Porsche gt3,Dodge Viper killer. These are two different customers, and yeah neither of them is us but that's the best chance of a v8 being built by Honda.
They will never make a truck big enough to need it and acura is going to go the other way entirely.

[deevergote]

My fiancee is German (well, her mother came from Germany, anyway...) I usually avoid trying to say any words that I'm likely to mispronounce. I've gotten in the habit of just saying "the ring" so I don't say it wrong!

The new NSX will be priced well under $200,000, and offer about 2/3 the horsepower of the 918, LaFerrari, and P1. It'll be quite impressive, certainly, but I doubt many people will be cross-shopping the NSX with those cars. The price alone is enough to make snobs look away from the NSX in favor of more prestigious marques.

As it is, the NSX is likely to be cross-shopped with those less expensive cars you mentioned.
The NSX's competition is going to be the Porsche 911 GT3 RS, Nissan GTR Nismo, Mercedes-Benz AMG GT, McLaren 570S, Jaguar F Type R, Aston Martin Vantage (maybe), and Audi R8. On the higher end of things, the Ferrari California would potentially be considered. On the lower end of things, the Chevy Corvette Z06 and Dodge Viper.

If Honda were to release an NSX-based thing that fits in the $60,000 - $80,000 price range... perhaps with an N/A V6 for the lower end and a turbo V6 for the upper end of the range... THAT would work. If a V8 were to be considered in the future for other Honda/Acura vehicles, they could potentially transfer it to that platform for a future generation.

[cb7 calling]

First you are most likely correct. In the 60 to 80 thousand market if there is even a Honda it will be a v6 much like one in the nsx.
It's interesting to try and figure what the nsx market is because I think the would have left the hybrid off to compete with gtr, 911, corvette ect.
The press releases state more than 550 hp total system output.
With an all new dry sump dohc v6 twin turbo that could do that number alone I find it possible for Honda to go big there. I think I read the electric motors will do 50 for the main and like 38 each for the ones at the front wheels. We are talking more like 600 hp 600 lb ft. That's gonna stalk the fastest cars out there if it gets put to the ground well.

[sonikaccord]

It better have way more than 600 ft-lbs in total. I would imagine the smaller front motors could do 200 ft-lbs each, easily. I mean, a 2004 prius motor is capable of almost 300 ft-lbs and it's relatively small. I really hope that they have a "software update" style upgrade similar to Tesla, and that they engineered a bit of extra potential in the hybrid system because that part seems lackluster on paper. I've always been of mindset that if you are going to do a hybrid performance car, go balls out and use the torque that those motors produce so easily.

Then use the engine to make the power up high, since the low end has been taken care of, reduce the number of gear ratios (9 speed auto?? Really Honda??) because of your newly increased powerband.

They had it right with the original accord hybrid. That thing could've been a monster and really changed how people view hybrids, imo. They should revisit the IMA, and throw it in a performance based car for the masses. Keep it V6, and about 3000lbs and you have a winner.

[deevergote]

First you are most likely correct. In the 60 to 80 thousand market if there is even a Honda it will be a v6 much like one in the nsx.
It's interesting to try and figure what the nsx market is because I think the would have left the hybrid off to compete with gtr, 911, corvette ect.
The press releases state more than 550 hp total system output.
With an all new dry sump dohc v6 twin turbo that could do that number alone I find it possible for Honda to go big there. I think I read the electric motors will do 50 for the main and like 38 each for the ones at the front wheels. We are talking more like 600 hp 600 lb ft. That's gonna stalk the fastest cars out there if it gets put to the ground well.

It will most likely put anything in its price range to shame, I imagine!
I don't doubt that Honda could certainly have built the NSX into a car that would be able to compete directly with the $800,000-$1,000,000 cars that it bears a resemblance to... but Honda knows their market. A $200,000 Honda/Acura is SERIOUSLY pushing the envelope already. They're not an automaker with enough clout and prestige to make such a car and sell enough to even hope to break even. Toyota tried that with the LF-A... and while that was an immensely impressive car, it was a flop. It was Toyota flexing its "most powerful automaker in the world" muscles, and nothing more. I believe Toyota lost a LOT of money on the LF-A, and fully expected to. Furthermore, the car was so far above the radar of the average Toyota/Lexus buyer that it likely did very little to elevate the brand in terms of luxury/performance/exotic market clout. And the LF-A was only priced around $350,000!
People that buy Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and McLarens do so partially BECAUSE they cost a fortune. You're driving around in something that says "I have a buttload of money!" Those brands say that. Honda/Acura (same as Toyota/Lexus) does not. Even if Honda could build a mechanical equal to the $800,000+ cars, they probably couldn't even sell enough of them at half the price to justify the design and manufacture of them.


A $60,000, NSX-based, V6 powered thing that puts out 350hp, and weighs 3200lbs or less... that will be the car to buy. Not only is it a car that makes sense to the average Honda buyer in terms of price, but it's also a car that budget-minded enthusiasts like us would potentially be able to afford on the used market in 5-10 years. My CTS-V was $54,000 in 2006. I got it for $16,000 6 years later. Granted, a $60,000 Honda/Acura would probably be worth $25,000+ when it's 6 years old... but that's still not unreasonable for an enthusiast. Especially when the original NSX still fetches that price (and that's for a heavily used 25 year old model!)





Sorry, I keep taking this off track from the V8 conversation! Though I don't know that there's much more to say about that, other than it would be cool to see it happen... if Honda could produce enough reason to MAKE it happen.

[deevergote]

It better have way more than 600 ft-lbs in total. I would imagine the smaller front motors could do 200 ft-lbs each, easily. I mean, a 2004 prius motor is capable of almost 300 ft-lbs and it's relatively small. I really hope that they have a "software update" style upgrade similar to Tesla, and that they engineered a bit of extra potential in the hybrid system because that part seems lackluster on paper. I've always been of mindset that if you are going to do a hybrid performance car, go balls out and use the torque that those motors produce so easily.

Then use the engine to make the power up high, since the low end has been taken care of, reduce the number of gear ratios (9 speed auto?? Really Honda??) because of your newly increased powerband.

They had it right with the original accord hybrid. That thing could've been a monster and really changed how people view hybrids, imo. They should revisit the IMA, and throw it in a performance based car for the masses. Keep it V6, and about 3000lbs and you have a winner.

The NSX's electric motors drive the front wheels, don't they? Or are they at all 4 corners? I keep forgetting what was rumor and what actually made it to the final product! If the motors are front-only, then big torque is a bad idea, I'd say. The new NSX is more about overall balance than big power, I think.

[sonikaccord]

The NSX's electric motors drive the front wheels, don't they? Or are they at all 4 corners? I keep forgetting what was rumor and what actually made it to the final product! If the motors are front-only, then big torque is a bad idea, I'd say. The new NSX is more about overall balance than big power, I think.

It has three in total. 1 per wheel in the front and a larger motor in the transmission for the rear. I'll agree that big torque could be a problem in the front but a proper reduction gear size could take care of that. And it would have the added benefit of sounding better "on paper" because we all know how important numbers are. I'll go look up Porsche's hybrid system as I've recently had the opportunity to touch a 918 Spyder.

[owequitit]

The NSX's electric motors drive the front wheels, don't they? Or are they at all 4 corners? I keep forgetting what was rumor and what actually made it to the final product! If the motors are front-only, then big torque is a bad idea, I'd say. The new NSX is more about overall balance than big power, I think.

Has nobody read the press releases from several weeks ago?

500HP (406lb-ft) TT V6 with a total system output of 573HP including the electric assist, but keep in mind that the output of electric motors decreases with RPM and if Honda rated it the way the Germans (and pretty much everyone else) rates hybrids, then it would 500+36+36+47 or 619HP.

It has 3 electric motors, 1 on each front wheel (36HP each) and one in the transmission case that also serves to replace the starter (driving the rear wheels at 47HP).

The two front motors essentially do the same thing as they do on the RLX eSH-AWD car, where they can send power to either side or they can go into regen mode and cause drag, which actually results in negative torque (similar to the system that would apply a brake on one side).

The car is expected to do 0-60 in 3 seconds or less and should complete the 1/4 mile in the low 11 second to high 10 second range.

It is a bit heavy (3800lbs) and the steering has been criticized for feel in some modes.

The rumors are that Honda is developing a Targa and a Type-R. The rumors aren't clear on whether the Type-R will still be AWD, but they tend to lean toward gas engine only, more power, several hundred pounds of weight loss, more exotic construction materials and vastly superior performance to the "stock" version. There are also rumors of that one having an MT and it would be designed to compete against such specials as the Porsche 911 GT3, etc.

[deevergote]

I haven't read it (didn't know there was one!) I think you probably just explained it better than I'd have understood it anyway! I'll take a look at it later tonight (after pizza... which is being served as I type! Friday night is my favorite.)

The Porsche 918 runs the quarter mile in 9.8 seconds, I believe... so low 11s or high 10s for the NSX would be quite nice, given the significant price difference.

[owequitit]

I haven't read it (didn't know there was one!) I think you probably just explained it better than I'd have understood it anyway! I'll take a look at it later tonight (after pizza... which is being served as I type! Friday night is my favorite.)

The Porsche 918 runs the quarter mile in 9.8 seconds, I believe... so low 11s or high 10s for the NSX would be quite nice, given the significant price difference.

haha. Wasn't trying to be a dick about it, just surprised that info has been out for a couple weeks now and nobody seems to know anything about the thing. That could be bad for Honda.

I think it is more like the in the 10's for 1/4 mile, but I am not 100%. All I have heard is that it is fast by any measure. The track events/road drives didn't give the usual rags a chance to measure it, but high 2's to low 3's in the 0-60 and then a very fast 1/4 mile seems to be the consensus.

And it looks fucking sick in blue with the Y spoke wheels.

[deevergote]

No worries. I didn't take it as being a dick!
You're right though, probably a bad sign for Honda. Dangling the NSX in front of people for years on end, scrapping it and starting over... I think people just got tired of being excited about it. I'm honestly far less excited about it now than I was when the first V10 model was being plastered all over the internet! I'm glad they went the direction they did, though. If this thing isn't directly competitive in terms of performance with cars priced 5x higher, it'll be close enough to make those guys sweat. And if it holds true to Honda standards, it'll be far more reliable and daily-driveable than $800,000-$1,000,000 cars to which it bears a striking resemblance.


I find myself far more interested in the rumored NSX-based gasoline-engine-only car. I genuinely hope they release it as a drastically less expensive model, styled to look somewhat different from the NSX... rather than a "Type R" NSX for purists, priced similarly to the hybrid model.
A less expensive engine-only car would be a fitting way for Honda to spit in the eye of McLaren and Porsche... as THAT would be a car more comparable to the 911 GT3 and 570S... offered at potentially half the price (or less) thank those cars. If the hybrid NSX weighs in at 3700lbs, I bet a car lacking all the electric motors and battery packs could come in at 3200lbs or less. Even a 350hp V6 in a car weighing 3200lbs, while not "supercar level", would be a VERY respectable performer if sold in the $60,000-$80,000 price range (maybe a 450hp turbo V6 if they're going to the $80,000 pricerange...)

[sonikaccord]

Honda needs just an average 30-40k sports car for the masses...it's going to be very hard because from what I've been hearing about the 2016 Camaro, it's an absolute monster at an MSRP of around 42k. Then you have the Mustang Ecoboost sitting at 25k, the Miata at less than that. They would really have to differentiate themselves to even be noticed among those crowds.