From a BMW driver: Much Respect to the CB7

[Tippey764]

I love how everyone talks about how high the maintenance is on a bmw. So where is your proof of this? It sounds like a lot of people are just spouting off bullshit. I own 3 bmws now and honestly I don't notice a difference in maintenance.

And also the labor that goes Ito maintenance? It's way easier to change the oil and belts on my 328i than a cb7. The filter is where you can actually reach it and the belt tensioner is super easy to use. To change the alternator belt on a cb7 is a bitch

Even the clutch job I did on the 328i was way easier since its RWD. Drop the exhaust and drive shaft and then you're ready to remove the transmission basically.

[owequitit]

Tippey, that's an awesome looking M3. I'm jealous. E46 model was definitely the last and best of the true M3 cars.

I'm glad everybody, for the most part, appreciated my comments about the CB7. They are cool looking cars that are apparently indestructible. I'm really interested to know what the secret is to their longevity. I know this is a tuner community, but most of the examples I see driven on the street look bone stock.

How did Honda build such a bulletproof car? Since you guys tune them you must know them better than anybody else.

The secret to the CB7's longevity is no secret.

Of all car companies on the planet, Honda doesn't get the respect it deserves in relation to engineering prowess. They are an engineering company bar none.

1) The first thing that makes Hondas so long lived is that they engineer for a longer lifespan. I read once that the intended life cycle of the CB7 was 400K miles under normal usage. Compare that to companies like GM who were designing for life cycles of about 100K at that time, and you can see how this goes. If the maintenance is above average, the CB7 will easily last for half a million miles or more. At an average rate of 12K per year, that works out to ~40 years. Of course, seals and such start to dry out, but even at 23 years old and 256K miles most of the stuff on my CB7 is still functional (even rubber parts), if not in mint condition. Keep in mind, I live in AZ and rubber seals are the first thing to go around here.

2) Honda is very good at implementing the KISS principle when it comes to engineering. They manage to do things that other companies do for a fraction of the cost and complexity. Since simple stuff tends to break less, they are more reliable.

Here are a few examples:

A)VTEC. While not as advanced as some newer implementations, it is by far the simplest and most reliable. It provides about 90% of the total benefit of systems like Valvetronic, but with much less mass, lower parts count and much greater simplicity. In fact, it was patented to be so simple that other companies were pretty much forced to go more complex in order to duplicate it.

B) The variable redline that the M cars have. Using a large algorithm of computer code and many sensors, they change the redline to protect the engine from cold.

Honda accomplishes the same thing with its high-revving engines by having a two stage rev limit. Below a certain coolant temp it won't rev past 5-5.5K and VTEC is disabled. Once coolant temps reach a certain threshold (implying a minimum oil temp), the system works as intended.

C) Maintenance interval systems. Whereas BMW, VW, etc. use many sensors and computers to determine when you need to change your oil, Honda calculates a combination of revolutions and MAF to determine total airflow, and thus oil life. The disadvantage is that systems like brake pads aren't measured, but since that is a standard part of an oil change service, it gets checked frequently anyway.

3)Honda uses higher quality construction techniques, methods, and systems to ensure longevity.

A) Honda machines their engines to tolerances that were unheard of in many forms of motorsports just a few years ago. NASCAR didn't approach 1980's factory stock levels of Honda tolerances until about 10 years ago. That isn't Honda's race cars... By making the tolerances tighter and using higher quality metals, etc. the engines wear more evenly over time and have a longer interval before they are out of tolerances requiring a rebuild.

B) They overbuild their powertrains as well. Every single Honda combustion engine made features things like a forged crankshaft (which is something GM doesn't do until their high performance, or highly boosted models). Things like rods, bearings, etc are all overbuilt. Not necessarily in the big, heavy way, as much as in using construction techniques that make an equal weight part stronger than its competitors.

Many years of racing (including the most powerful and stressed IC engines ever built in history) have taught them how to keep things together.

Other than a few common problems, which are pretty minor, there aren't a lot of weak areas with this chassis.

I love how everyone talks about how high the maintenance is on a bmw. So where is your proof of this? It sounds like a lot of people are just spouting off bullshit. I own 3 bmws now and honestly I don't notice a difference in maintenance.

And also the labor that goes Ito maintenance? It's way easier to change the oil and belts on my 328i than a cb7. The filter is where you can actually reach it and the belt tensioner is super easy to use. To change the alternator belt on a cb7 is a bitch

Even the clutch job I did on the 328i was way easier since its RWD. Drop the exhaust and drive shaft and then you're ready to remove the transmission basically.

BMW's are expensive to maintain. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a reality.

First, they require a lot more TLC than Honda's do. While individual parts might not be terribly expensive, the hard reality is that as a system, you are replacing more parts more of the time. As the car ages, you will notice how much worse it gets.

We both know that things like suspension bushings etc, have a fraction of the lifespan of equivalent Honda parts. While the Honda's may go 150K between replacements, it isn't uncommon for BMW's to need nearly full suspension rebuilds every 50-100K. That is part of how they got front struts to handle as well as they do. They are also notorious for wearing tires, especially back ones since they have a lot of rear camber.

Electrical system problems typically crop up around 100K, and accelerate to 200K on an exponential curve.

And let's be realistic. Changing clutches on a BMW is not any more of a desireable job than a Honda. Some stuff might be easier, but some stuff is harder too. You have to drop the exhaust, pull the driveshaft, and then deal with a much heavier and bulkier transmission. I have seen what is involved in a BMW clutch job, and while I wouldn't rank it harder than a CB7, I certainly wouldn't call it easier either. You still end dropping a mount, pulling drive shafts and disassembling half the car to get to everything. Clutches and flywheels (assuming you are using OEM) are more expensive. The flywheel on my buddies E92 is around $700 for a new OEM one. My Si is maybe 1/4 that cost...

As for belt changes, the CB7 belts are not hard to change if you do it right. I can swap them in about 10 minutes. You make it sound like a major ordeal. The serpentine on the Bimmers aren't hard either, but then again on everything before the E92 you have to deal with things like the fan and fan clutch.

Every car has its tradeoffs, and compared to a Honda, the MX costs on a Bimmer are one of them. I love Bimmers, but I am not disillusioned into trying to pretend they are cheaper to own. The biggest issue here is that you want to support BMW, and you are comparing a much newer Bimmer to a much older Honda. Wait to you dig into that E36... You should see how easy and simple the 2013 Accord is...

[Tippey764]

The alternator belt on a cb7 is a pain in the ass. They give you no room at all to turn the adjuster that needs to be turned quite a bit to get the belt on/off.

And i'm not sure what electrical problems you're talking about. My 328i has 256k and the m3 has 116k. Neither of them have even the slightest of electrical issues.

My point was not that its cheaper to own a BMW but its not as expensive as people make it out to be. Also another reason why i like them. BMW uses higher quality parts all around. For example the exhaust is made out of stainless steel, not cheap ass steel that rusts out in a few years.

Theres a whole bunch of things i could go over but essentially my point is, BMW's aren't as expensive as people think they are and they sure aren't really any harder to work on ( at least the ones i'm working with ) than the hondas i've worked with in the past. Outside of special tools required the work is fairly easy. And honestly i like torx more than the philips screws you will find on other cars.

[owequitit]

The alternator belt on a cb7 is a pain in the ass. They give you no room at all to turn the adjuster that needs to be turned quite a bit to get the belt on/off.

And i'm not sure what electrical problems you're talking about. My 328i has 256k and the m3 has 116k. Neither of them have even the slightest of electrical issues.

My point was not that its cheaper to own a BMW but its not as expensive as people make it out to be. Also another reason why i like them. BMW uses higher quality parts all around. For example the exhaust is made out of stainless steel, not cheap ass steel that rusts out in a few years.

Theres a whole bunch of things i could go over but essentially my point is, BMW's aren't as expensive as people think they are and they sure aren't really any harder to work on ( at least the ones i'm working with ) than the hondas i've worked with in the past. Outside of special tools required the work is fairly easy. And honestly i like torx more than the philips screws you will find on other cars.

You might want to buy the proper tools. I have no problems releasing the alternator tensioner on a CB7 with a ratchet and a socket. Maybe an open end wrench. Oh yeah, and I have an under-drive pulley that makes it harder. I can still do it in several minutes. You act like I don't know a thing about how to fix CB7's...

You can say whatever you want about your two BMW's. Every single other BMW I have seen with more than 100K had electrical issues. From maladies like intermittent sensor functioning to switches etc going out. That is based on 8-10 cars, not 1 or 2.

My buddy had an E46 before the E92. Granted it was dealer maintained (more labor cost), but they still had put almost $10K into it replacing "normal" shit by the time it hit 120K. Perhaps you aren't replacing the things that are supposed to be replaced on an interval?

The point is that every single equivalent BMW to every single equivalent Honda was more time consuming to maintain and more expensive. Accept what you want. I don't buy your claims based on personal experience.

P.S. If you bought your 328i used, how do you have the faintest idea what was replaced prior to you owning it? Oh, and how long have you had your Bimmers? I am talking from about 20 years of Honda experience here, with many of the same cars. I am not speaking from the perspective of someone who goes through cars like candy, or someone who hasn't owned either for very long.

[Ralphie]

Tippey knows his shit but i just don't agree with the bmw outlook. I think part of it is he's still in the honeymoon period.

He did post about how his oil change was pricey but i don't think he thinks about it on a timeline, like 5 year ownership(which cr bases their stats on)

The last article i read from them had German automobiles as the most expensive of all cars to own over 5 years. This from a company that has been reviewing everything from cars to toasters longer then I've been alive.

Not knocking the platform, but like you said, I'm not believing the hype. I know better.

[owequitit]

Tippey knows his shit but i just don't agree with the bmw outlook. I think part of it is he's still in the honeymoon period.

He did post about how his oil change was pricey but i don't think he thinks about it on a timeline, like 5 year ownership(which cr bases their stats on)

The last article i read from them had German automobiles as the most expensive of all cars to own over 5 years. This from a company that has been reviewing everything from cars to toasters longer then I've been alive.

Not knocking the platform, but like you said, I'm not believing the hype. I know better.

I also know my shit. It isn't like I haven't had plenty of friends with plenty of BMW's...

That said, I am not bagging on the car, simply stating that maintenance costs are not one of the areas where BMW's hold an advantage over Hondas. Of course, he has had his M3 for about 2-3 months. That isn't even close to long term, so it is hard to make claims about long term costs with it.

[Tippey764]

I also know my shit. It isn't like I haven't had plenty of friends with plenty of BMW's...

That said, I am not bagging on the car, simply stating that maintenance costs are not one of the areas where BMW's hold an advantage over Hondas. Of course, he has had his M3 for about 2-3 months. That isn't even close to long term, so it is hard to make claims about long term costs with it.

Good for you

[Ralphie]

I also know my shit. It isn't like I haven't had plenty of friends with plenty of BMW's...

That said, I am not bagging on the car, simply stating that maintenance costs are not one of the areas where BMW's hold an advantage over Hondas. Of course, he has had his M3 for about 2-3 months. That isn't even close to long term, so it is hard to make claims about long term costs with it.

Oh i know you know your Shit, don't have to tell me that.

I was just saying.

Most people i know lease them so when it gets expensive they can move on

[Tippey764]

My whole point was that they're not as expensive as you think, not that they're cheap

You keep arguing like i said it was cheap or something

That being said yes it costs $100 to change the oil on the m3. Thats because i want to use the right oil

All of that aside too, that doesn't bother me. Money isn't an issue to me.

[owequitit]

My whole point was that they're not as expensive as you think, not that they're cheap

You keep arguing like i said it was cheap or something

That being said yes it costs $100 to change the oil on the m3. Thats because i want to use the right oil

All of that aside too, that doesn't bother me. Money isn't an issue to me.

1) They are exactly as much as I think. $100 here and $100 bucks there adds up a lot faster than you are pretending it does. Nobody said they were super expensive. But they are more. Your brake pad job is about 50% more than mine. That is more money. I also do my oil changes correctly and use very good oil in the process. My oil change is 50% cheaper than yours. To top it off, my engine is realistically just as high revving, just as high strung, and may likely last longer. One area Honda is unquestionably superior is being able to build a high strung engine that doesn't require any more TLC than a "normal" engine.

2) Your claims of savings are based largely on DIY savings. The problem is that DIY'ing a Honda also saves a lot of money. Not as much, but that is because they are less man hour intensive.

3) People who buy a used car with a car payment and then pretend they are made of money make me LOL. I remember a comment in your thread about how you laugh at people who pay more for "less" car than you did. Just wait till you start replacing SMG parts...

I laugh at people who buy expensive cars after they aren't very expensive anymore and then try to pretend they are high rollers by making comments like "money doesn't matter to me." Statements like this are usually the reason Bimmer owners come across as douches. People who really don't care about money pay cash for a brand new M3.

You like your BMW, and that is great. I would love to have an E46 M3 (and I could have), but I wanted the peace of mind of a new car with a warranty instead. BMW's are good cars from a enthusiast standpoint. However, to pretend they are unobtainable by the average Joe, or are anywhere near the cost of owning as a Honda are just both ludicrous statements. Call me when you have another 5-10 years of ownership on that baby.

[owequitit]

Oh i know you know your Shit, don't have to tell me that.

I was just saying.

Most people i know lease them so when it gets expensive they can move on

Most people lease them because they know the costs are coming. Especially loyal BMW buyers. Ze Germans had to include the cost of MX into the lease in order to stop the flow of buyers to the Japanese brands. It was a genius move because it made a BMW that was of little unforecast expense to the owner.

That said, I don't like some of the stuff BMW is doing to lower the perceived cost of the maintenance on their cars. For starters, they try to tell you that tranny and diff fluid is "lifetime" which is BS. We just changed my friend's fluids and there was a HUGE difference in the way the tranny shifts (he is at about 70K now). The dealer also won't replace crap prematurely. If his oil comes due and he drives to Phoenix to get it fixed, they won't change the brake pads even though they might only have a month or two left on them. There is also a long list of stuff you can't do to the car without BMW voiding the warranty... He wiped down his engine compartment once and they gave him shit for wiping off one of the grease marks they use to see if stuff has been messed with...

[JDMDriver]

I would not mind owning a BMW if not for the cost being factor.

Cost however is a relative point since someone having an income of $200,000 per year would not feel a $6k to $10k a year disparity in maintenance expenses.

If both cars (Honda and BMW) are brand new and need no repairs the maintenance cost and running costs is minimal but still more expensive for the BMW. Why?

Depreciation disadv BMW - Initial costs not only higher meaning more to lose but steeper depreciation curve than a Honda.

Brake costs disadv BMW - Well known BMW's wear out rotors not just pads. Accords however (from my experience) only wear the pads. More parts to replace mean more costs even if both parts prices are the same.

Insurance disadv BMW - In australia European cars are very expensive and therefore attract higher premiums in insurance costs which gets paid every year.

Wheels disadv BMW - Europeans tend to have larger rims and wider tyres. which usually tend to be of performance oriented - meaning they wear out quicker too. Keeping the wheel dimension and even premium brand of continental, michellin, pirelli etc rather than Dunlop, Goodyear or Bridgestones add more to the costs.

Just on the above limited examples alone will add hundreds if not thousands in a span of just 4 to 6 years of ownership. In real terms the BMW does cost more to maintain and run. But for some if your income is high enough a that thousand or two a year will not make a difference.

[Shadow1]

'08 3 Series. do want

its already perfect on how it sits. with just wheels and a drop its even more awesome....

[deevergote]

I think I still liked the looks of the E46 and older better. The newer ones just looked too bulky to me. Still very nice cars, but the bubblier and larger they get, the less sporty they seem to me.
According to the magazines, the current batch of BMWs has lost a good deal of what made BMW great. Sorta like Honda's fairly noticeable decline at the turn of the century (aside from the work of art that was the S2000...)

[andrew22888]

You wanna talk about expensive to maintain. I use to work at valvoline and for volkswagons to keep their warranty they have to use 0-30 full sythentic. And they recommend fuel system maintenance at like 40,000 mile for turbo cars and thats like full injector swaps. So bmw's are cheaper than alot of alot cars I have seen. But still not the cheapest. But for what you get bmw's are a good alternative to say a mercedes or even a lincoln.