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Revisiting the V6 swap

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    #16
    $10k for a K24 engine?! WHERE?

    Quick google search and I found the following:
    K24A3 with 6 speed trans and all accessories: US $2,645.00

    You can find it even cheaper with just the motor. Hell, I even found a K24 with K20 head for less than $1,000.

    Not sure where you got the $10k from. But, who can argue with the torque of a V6.

    Good Luck

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      #17
      Originally posted by oni_cb7 View Post
      $10k for a K24 engine?! WHERE?

      Quick google search and I found the following:
      K24A3 with 6 speed trans and all accessories: US $2,645.00

      You can find it even cheaper with just the motor. Hell, I even found a K24 with K20 head for less than $1,000.

      Not sure where you got the $10k from. But, who can argue with the torque of a V6.

      Good Luck
      K24's are fairly cheap, but it would be $10k for a full NA build to hit 300HP. That's where it came from.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by h22sparkle View Post
        This thread needs more pictures of step by step on how to perform these actions. The future of our very vehicles are at stake.
        Once I start getting into the meat of the thing, every step will be documented so people can do this themselves.

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          #19
          I am almost done. It will have 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th generations of Accord, 5th gen Prelude, 2nd and 3rd gen TL and 4th gen RL. I'm assuming the TL and CL front ends are similar. I can try to find the frame chart for it if needed.

          The only thing that confuses me is the Base Line and the Vertical Line reference points. I'm not sure if they are with respect to the axle hub or the lower ball joint. I may have to go back and make some edits that include a more familiar reference point like the Center Damper or UCA mounts.

          YouTube Clicky!!

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            #20
            I almost have enough for the h2b swap with everything. Shits crazy though how you have to shave off some of the engine block just to get them axles to make clearance and the halfshaft too.

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              #21
              Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
              I am almost done. It will have 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th generations of Accord, 5th gen Prelude, 2nd and 3rd gen TL and 4th gen RL. I'm assuming the TL and CL front ends are similar. I can try to find the frame chart for it if needed.

              The only thing that confuses me is the Base Line and the Vertical Line reference points. I'm not sure if they are with respect to the axle hub or the lower ball joint. I may have to go back and make some edits that include a more familiar reference point like the Center Damper or UCA mounts.
              Fantastic! If nothing else, it'd be nice to see those numbers, and I might try to figure out what they are on the CB7 and CD5 I have sitting around.

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                #22
                It seems that the Innovative kit for the '97-'01 Prelude as well as their front traction bar adapter ($99.00 and $149.00, respectively) would get the front and rear mounts taken care of and allow the engine to hang securely in the bay. From there, you could use the side brackets and mounts that are included in the kit and see if any tweaks are needed to the brackets welded to the front frame rails. If they don't align properly, you can cut your OEM Accord brackets off and have new ones welded into place in the correct locations. This can be fabbed easily with thicker-gauge steel and the proper use of gusseting.
                Last edited by Jarrett; 12-01-2016, 08:05 PM.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                  It seems that the Innovative kit for the '97-'01 Prelude as well as their front traction bar adapter ($99.00 and $149.00, respectively) would get the front and rear mounts taken care of and allow the engine to hang securely in the bay. From there, you could use the side brackets and mounts that are included in the kit and see if any tweaks are needed to the brackets welded to the front frame rails. If they don't align properly, you can cut your OEM Accord brackets off and have new ones welded into place in the correct locations. This can be fabbed easily with thicker-gauge steel and the proper use of gusseting.
                  Something I discuss in my original post, and honestly this may be what I end up doing. If there's an OEM front and rear subframe that would bolt up and solve the mount issue for the front and back, I imagine I can just make brackets for the OEM mounts to work too.

                  Additionally, I think a '97-'99 3.0CL front and rear subframe would actually work. The first gen CL is based on the 5th gen accord, whose front and rear subframes would technically bolt up to our CB7's. I think I need to pick up a decent yet cheap welder and learn to weld, then this swap is guaranteed something I can do.
                  Last edited by willbill642; 12-01-2016, 08:12 PM.

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                    #24
                    I think the subframe is a surefire fit, but it will introduce unnecessary bracing between the two subframes that is designed solely to allow the transmission to sit on. I don't really like the idea of a horizontally-opposed engine being mounted to a portion of the car that experiences that amount of torsion. I have no engineering data to back that up, but it would seem to introduce chassis dynamics not necessarily present in the case of the engine being completely suspended or resting on chassis rails and solid subframes. I also think that the majority of people doing this would want a front traction bar for performance purposes.

                    I suppose there would be two distinct methods of approaching this. An OEM-like version with 3.0CL front subframe and front beam, and then the aftermarket method with Innovative mounts and your choice of front traction bar.

                    As someone who weekend-drives a CLS-6 and has owned 3 of them, you will NOT be disappointed in that engine.

                    Here's an engine I recently built to go into my CLS-6 that I've not gotten around to buttoning up.







                    A couple of spare blocks (J35A3 and J32A2) that I'll tear down and send to the machine shop one of these days.




                    The rebuilt engine is a J35A3 block and rotating assembly with J32A3 pistons (largest dome to make for 11.8:1 CR), ported J32A2 heads (+1mm intake valves is the only upgrade over P8E heads) and camshafts, as well as ported runners. I also have a J37A4 intake manifold and BLOX 76mm throttle body to install as well. After you have one of these, the 4-cylinders seem like a waste. If only the CLS-6 wasn't 800lbs. heavier than the Accord.
                    Last edited by Jarrett; 12-02-2016, 12:54 AM.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                    Comment


                      #25
                      The V6 will make you lose interest in the 4s very quickly.

                      I disagree with the unnecessary bracing statement. It's not my field of engineering either, but here is my take:
                      The front and rear "beams" of the stock CB have engine mounts that prevent excessive torsional motion. The subframes also have this, so the chassis already experiences a torsional force...just not from a V6

                      The transmission can be supported by either the chassis, the subframe or both.

                      The engine is supported by the frame rail.

                      The traction bar is designed to prevent excessive dynamic alignment changes. A set of solid aluminum, delrin or high rate poly mounts for the subframe and control arms will do as good of a job or better of keeping the alignment as constant as possible. Plus you get the advantage of a fully boxed in subframe which should result in a stiffer chassis. More bracing could be added, but at what cost/benefit?

                      The CB rear beam holds the steering box and the control arms. It is a simple piece of stamped steel which doesn't appear to be as solid as the subframe construction. There seems to be potential for a lot of play to be eliminated here.

                      YouTube Clicky!!

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
                        The V6 will make you lose interest in the 4s very quickly.

                        I disagree with the unnecessary bracing statement. It's not my field of engineering either, but here is my take:
                        The front and rear "beams" of the stock CB have engine mounts that prevent excessive torsional motion. The subframes also have this, so the chassis already experiences a torsional force...just not from a V6

                        The transmission can be supported by either the chassis, the subframe or both.

                        The engine is supported by the frame rail.

                        The traction bar is designed to prevent excessive dynamic alignment changes. A set of solid aluminum, delrin or high rate poly mounts for the subframe and control arms will do as good of a job or better of keeping the alignment as constant as possible. Plus you get the advantage of a fully boxed in subframe which should result in a stiffer chassis. More bracing could be added, but at what cost/benefit?

                        The CB rear beam holds the steering box and the control arms. It is a simple piece of stamped steel which doesn't appear to be as solid as the subframe construction. There seems to be potential for a lot of play to be eliminated here.
                        This is my thought as well. The CB7 flexes a LOT, and the more bracing I have the better.

                        As for the traction bar, I discovered the front J-swap mount for the Prelude can be bought separately, so I could pick up an innovative front traction bar and Prelude J-swap front mount alone, but if the 3.0CL frame is boxed in and connected then I'd have to pick up the rear mount and either a Prelude rear subframe or see if the 5th gen subframe I have works, since their rear H series mounts are the same for the 5th gen Prelude and 5th gen Accord.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                          ...

                          Here's an engine I recently built to go into my CLS-6 that I've not gotten around to buttoning up.







                          A couple of spare blocks (J35A3 and J32A2) that I'll tear down and send to the machine shop one of these days.




                          The rebuilt engine is a J35A3 block and rotating assembly with J32A3 pistons (largest dome to make for 11.8:1 CR), ported J32A2 heads (+1mm intake valves is the only upgrade over P8E heads) and camshafts, as well as ported runners. I also have a J37A4 intake manifold and BLOX 76mm throttle body to install as well. After you have one of these, the 4-cylinders seem like a waste. If only the CLS-6 wasn't 800lbs. heavier than the Accord.
                          Having a V6 as a daily, I absolutely cannot put another 4 cyl into the Accord. The torque alone makes me want to swap it; being able to hit 300HP NA makes me need to swap it.

                          What ECU are you planning to run the rebuilt engine on? Also, are you planning to get it dyno'd? Most of those parts would be VERY easy for me to get my hands on, and looks like one of the best options I have for a good race-focused engine. Also, do you know if J32a3 camshafts can be used in J32a2 heads, and if they're even an upgrade at all?

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by willbill642 View Post
                            Having a V6 as a daily, I absolutely cannot put another 4 cyl into the Accord. The torque alone makes me want to swap it; being able to hit 300HP NA makes me need to swap it.

                            What ECU are you planning to run the rebuilt engine on? Also, are you planning to get it dyno'd? Most of those parts would be VERY easy for me to get my hands on, and looks like one of the best options I have for a good race-focused engine. Also, do you know if J32a3 camshafts can be used in J32a2 heads, and if they're even an upgrade at all?
                            The J32A3 camshafts can be used, but are a downgrade when compared to OEM J32A2 camshafts. You will also need a simple washer shim to space the camshaft gear out to the location of the normal 1st-generation J-series timing components. The camshafts are slightly shorter in the newer engines, but it's only the length after the seal that's different.

                            A decent upgrade would be J35A8 camshafts, of which there are a couple of different profiles (mid-year change in the '06 RL) or the J37A1 camshafts. I haven't seen data on those, but it is commonly held that they are the same profile as the later J35A8 camshafts, but with a hollow center bore for weight savings. It used to be popular to gun-drill camshafts, but never with the import crowd.



                            To clarify my argument with the bracing; I don't mean to say that extra bracing is not good. Maybe I worded it poorly. I meant that taking a flimsy piece of bracing and adding a dynamic mass to it (such as a horizontally-opposed V6 and transmission) with cause additional flex throughout the chassis as those harmonics are transferred to it. This is why I prefer the idea of a mount that incorporates the frame rail much more. I have even considered calling Innovative and seeing if they would sell the driver's side mount and separately so that I could do something like that with the CL. But that would be to hopefully run a traction bar, and not solely because of my above-mentioned concerns.
                            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                              To clarify my argument with the bracing; I don't mean to say that extra bracing is not good. Maybe I worded it poorly. I meant that taking a flimsy piece of bracing and adding a dynamic mass to it (such as a horizontally-opposed V6 and transmission) with cause additional flex throughout the chassis as those harmonics are transferred to it. This is why I prefer the idea of a mount that incorporates the frame rail much more. I have even considered calling Innovative and seeing if they would sell the driver's side mount and separately so that I could do something like that with the CL. But that would be to hopefully run a traction bar, and not solely because of my above-mentioned concerns.
                              But the two side mounts primary job is to support the weight of the engine and trans and the front and rear mounts to reduce the amount of recoil(?) from the torque. Ideally, the subframe would see as little weight from the engine as possible.

                              So to keep it CB specific, yes the one-piece subframe does have a transmission mount, but the trans also has and needs a rail mount support. It(the subframe) will bolt up to the front mounting holes, but a rear brace will be needed for the additional 2 mounting holes.


                              Here is the 90% finished document. It may have a few errors, and still needs the 2g TL portion which I'll add. Feel free to add or edit. It is a collaborative effort.

                              https://1drv.ms/w/s!AvnvrjOYneR_nHjW0bQHqDIWHZ0O
                              Last edited by sonikaccord; 12-02-2016, 08:41 PM.

                              YouTube Clicky!!

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                                #30


                                Here's what I'm talking about. The bracing that the J32A2 6-speed transmission sits on is this flimsy stamped steel. If you knew this, I apologize. Based on your response it sounded like you were referring to a frame rail mount, which it doesn't have in an OEM application.
                                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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