F22A NA build

[wagon-r]

I have a little free time tonight, so I thought I'd finally start my F22A build thread. I've done research and gathered parts for about a year (I don't have a lot of free time). I finally took the head off a couple weeks ago and took it to Pure Tuning in Toledo, OH. So, I'm finally going.

I'll just list my plans in this post, to keep things organized. Build will include:
- F22A head, rebuilt by Pure Tuning, plus some basic exhaust porting and 0.030" head mill
- Webcams.com camshaft: 0.400" lift (I/E), 202/199 deg duration (I/E) @ 0.050" lift, 114 deg lobe separation
- Bisimoto valve springs
- Bisimoto adjustable cam gear
- H23 intake manifold, including IAB
- H22 throttle body
- Prelude Si air filter box and connecting tube
- Bisimoto F22A header (I sure hope it doesn't leak)
- 2.5" OBD2 Magnaflow catalyst, 2.5" exhaust & resonator, Integra Type R muffler (2.25") - I don't want a lot of noise.
- H22A fuel injectors, cleaned and balanced by Mr. Gasket
- P72 ECU, chipped with Hondata S100 - will be tuned by Pure Tuning
- Windage tray (std. on my F22B1 block)

- Quaife LSD
- Koni Yellow Sport struts
- Progress rear sway bar

While I'm at it, I am replacing timing belt, water pump, rings, rod bearings, all water hoses, and most gaskets.

I know I'm not going to wind up with as much power as I would with an H22 swap. I decided against that for two reasons. First, I did an H22 swap about 10 years ago. Despite a "guarantee" that the engine had less than 35k miles on it, it only lasted about 20k before the compression went. If I'm going to go to all this trouble, I want an engine that will last for a while. The second reason is that its kind of cool to see what I can get out of the F22A.

[GhostAccord]

Nice combo of head, intake and exhaust parts. Should be a reliable build

S100 wouldn't be my first choice for tuning hardware though. All this work relying on some very old tech. However, you have obviously talked to your tuner and they are confident in this choice.

Any plans to put some more appropriate pistons in the block. Raising the compression via milling the head is OK but up grading pistons to suit all the money you are putting into getting air in and out of your head..seems a bit odd to keep stock B1 pistons.

[wagon-r]

On to the build itself. I have an 1997 Accord wagon, so I'm swapping out the F22B1 head for the F22A, primarily to get access to the H23A intake manifold and the Bisimoto header. This has led to a number of unexpected complications, such as the thermostat housing and valve covers are different for the F22B1. I'm addressing these as they come up.

I bought the car about a year ago. It only had 125k miles on it (verified by systematic service records through Carfax), so I thought the engine would be in good shape. Compression was good at about 220, but there was significant leakage (about 15%) past the piston rings and it burned a quart of oil about every 700 miles. So, I though I would need to rebuild the engine.

When I took the head off, I got a very pleasant surprise. The cylinders were all very clean with no scoring, there was no measurable taper, and the bore was within the service specs. Same with the bearings, which were also clean and within the service spec.

The problem with the rings was simply carbon buildup. The pistons had a coat of carbon and the ring grooves were loaded with it (see photos). To the point where the compression rings weren't sealing right and the oil rings were practically useless. I spent about 15 minutes on each piston cleaning out the ring grooves, then dunked them in Berryman Chem-Dip for about 4 hours.

So, after cleaning up the pistons and ring grooves and installing new rings, the engine block should be almost like new. I am also replacing the rod bearings, even though they are within the service spec, because spinning the engine at 7000 rpm is going to place a lot of stress on the rod bearings.

[wagon-r]

S100 wouldn't be my first choice for tuning hardware though. All this work relying on some very old tech. However, you have obviously talked to your tuner and they are confident in this choice.

It's a pretty simple tune. No turbo. No VTEC. I tuned a Civic B16 build myself about 5 years ago, but its really difficult to do properly without access to a dyno. So, I decided to just let Pure Tuning do it this time. They are a authorized Hondata dealer and have the equipment to tune with the S100, so I thought I'd save a few bucks.

Any plans to put some more appropriate pistons in the block. Raising the compression via milling the head is OK but up grading pistons to suit all the money you are putting into getting air in and out of your head..seems a bit odd to keep stock B1 pistons.

I was thinking about this yesterday, so I appreciate you bringing this up. Bisimoto doesn't list high compression pistons for the stock 85mm bore and I'm not interested in reboring the block, especially since it is within service specs. Questions:
- Do you know a source for 85 mm high compression pistons?
- How much can I raise compression ratio with the stock rods and crankshaft? I assume the higher compression ratio will put more stress on the rods and rod bearings and I want to be able to run to 7000 rpm occasionally without having to worry about spinning the bearings.

[GhostAccord]

Well you are probably going to want to look at new pistons and rods if you want to occasionally go over the F22B1s bottom end redline of 6200.

The crank is not so much of an issue and if you want aftermarket pistons it would be best to get rods that are made for floating wrist pins. And lighter is better for N/A.

I bought my Wiseco pistons and Carrillo rods from the boys at Race Engineering. They were very helpful when it came to finding a piston and rod combo that would fit my needs and budget. I spent a bit more on my rods and pistons than most builds you see around. Why because I want to be able to spin up to 7000 maybe even 9000 RPM and not have to worry a bit about it.

Here is an 85mm wiseco piston and Eagle H beam rod combo that you could look at. $800 for 11:1 and H beam rods http://www.raceeng.com/p-17631-wisec...-rod-kits.aspx

They have other options in the drop downs for a more custom option. IMO I would go with at least an 85.5mm so you can match the cylinder bores to each of the pistons.

[wagon-r]

Lots of good information. Thanks.

The one comment I didn't understand was the following:

IMO I would go with at least an 85.5mm so you can match the cylinder bores to each of the pistons.

Why wouldn't the 85 mm pistons match the stock bore?

[GhostAccord]

Forged pistons require more piston 2 wall clearance than the stock pistons. So you may or may not need some extra work on the cylinders to have them fit properly. I have personally seen what can happen when people just throw forged pistons in stock bores that they thought were good to go. Not a cheap fix for something so easy to do right from the start.

I figure that where the 85.5mm are no more expensive. Going for the extra displacement while the work is being done wouldn't hurt to mention. It does all add up to more cash in the end though. I'm sure you could get the 85mm, hone the block to suit them and be good to go.

[wagon-r]

Thanks to the good advice from Ghost, I called racing.com today and asked about forged pistons and H-rods. I give the guy I talked to (John) lots of points for honesty, but he sure wasn't encouraging.

He said that the primary problem with forged pistons is too much space and piston slap. He said the only way to do this properly is to first order the pistons then, once the pistons are in hand, meticulous bore and hone the cylinders to the exact diameter to match the pistons. Otherwise, they likely will not work properly and the rings will not seal properly.

Oh, and he doesn't have any high compression pistons in stock and it will take 4 weeks to have them make. So, if I want to do this, I need to pull my block out of the vehicle (only pulled the head so far), wait four weeks for the pistons to arrive, take the pistons and block to a machine shop to have it bored and honed, then finally put it all back together. With a total bill around $1,100, not to mention my time.

Sure makes me want to just have the head milled and put the stock pistons and rods back in. Especially since I am driving a 24 year old convertible and I need to put it up for the winter before the snow starts (I'm in Ann Arbor, MI).

[GhostAccord]

John P @ race engineering is a great guy to talk to.

That's what I was trying to get to about the piston to wall clearance and needing your engine bored & honed.

Welcome to engine building, if you are looking for quality and reliability, nothing ever gets done quickly or cheap! You may even be looking t another couple weeks once you drop the block off at your engine shop. Depends on how busy they are.

[wagon-r]

I looked up the part numbers for the connecting rods for the F22A and the H23. They are identical. Rod bolts also have the same part number.

The H23 redlines at 6500 rpm and has fuel cut at 6800. Seems like this is close enough that I shouldn't have to worry about an occasional blast to 7000 rpm, even with the stock pistons and rods. I am installing Bisimoto valve springs, so I shouldn't have to worry about valve float.

[GhostAccord]

Yes the F22/H23 rods will probably handle an occasional 7k.

Just putting this out there though. I'd rather spend the money up front on solid quality internals and engine work than $1000+ on a header that has questionable quality and gains.

With your list of everything you are doing specially to the top end. I have a feeling that the bottom end is going to have you fall a bit short. Milling the head only goes so far, specially if you are using a cam with a .4** lift. You have to start looking at piston to valve contact. Milling the head will lower your piston to valve clearance and only raise your compression to 9.4:1.

If you need to start driving this as a daily for the winter... maybe you should hold off on the rest of the build until next summer?????? or do you already have everything ripped apart and sent out?

I learned early in life never to start a build in the fall! Unless it's a winter build for the following spring. Never on a daily driver. You never know what issues you may run into.

[wagon-r]

I'd rather spend the money up front on solid quality internals and engine work than $1000+ on a header that has questionable quality and gains.

Can't argue. Unfortunately, I bought the Bisimoto header used before I joined CB7tuner and came across the threads on the questionable build quality. Fortunately, I got it for only $550 and it clearly has never been used or installed, plus it has the ceramic coating.

With your list of everything you are doing specially to the top end. I have a feeling that the bottom end is going to have you fall a bit short. Milling the head only goes so far, specially if you are using a cam with a .4** lift. You have to start looking at piston to valve contact. Milling the head will lower your piston to valve clearance and only raise your compression to 9.4:1.

Right again. But unless I can find someone who has forged pistons in stock, I think I'm just going to have to make do.

If you need to start driving this as a daily for the winter... maybe you should hold off on the rest of the build until next summer?????? or do you already have everything ripped apart and sent out?

Exactly right.

I learned early in life never to start a build in the fall! Unless it's a winter build for the following spring. Never on a daily driver. You never know what issues you may run into.

While I agree with you, I am extremely busy in the spring and summer. Fall is the only time I have to do this kind of stuff. But, as you say, I have been running into issues which is setting me back.

[GhostAccord]

That's a reasonable price on a ceramic coated Bisi header. $500 is all they should be selling for these days.

Best of luck with the rest of your build... Look forward to the end result.

[P5ylance]

i've been following your stuff wagon-r to kinda give me insight on my build as well, and thanks to ghostaccord for all your great input. If i may, may I also ask my question here as well?

Another F22 NA build, with Bisi lvl2 cam and valvesprings to match. I am an automatic, and I don't intend to push past redline. I was also considering those wiseco pistons you linked, but was concerned about all the boring and honing necessary to fit them, and from the response from John it looks like i was right is assuming there'd be more machine work than i can afford.

with what I'm going for and my driving habits being pretty conservative, i do want to occasionally push the motor for some fun passing. would a stock f22 piston and rod from a rebuild kit suffice for me then, in terms of durability? i will be operating the motor well below limits for almost 90 percent of the time unless i'm ultra-passing someone up.

I'm thinking a stock bottom end rebuild would be fine for my mods, but I just want a few more opinions on this.

thanks!

[GenDBlade]

Ive got a pretty similar build im working on as well. Looking forward to how this turns out.