Would this work?

[Ilikebigbutts]

Ok, i already made a thread about adjusting ignition timing with a timing light before but this is kinda different.Well, since my xtd flywheel doesnt have timing marks,i wants to mark them there my self.

Here is what i was thinking.Someone suggested that i turned the engine to tdc, took a protractor, measure 15 degrees, turn the engine, and mark it there.Well, i remember reading some where that cam sprocket turns 1/2 a turn for every full turn of the crank.So that means that i shouldnt mark it at 15 degrees right?I should mark it at 7.5.Does any one agree with me on this one?I can adjust the timing by driving the car and keep messing with it, but i'm too anal about this shit.I realise it wouldnt be dead on perfect, but it would be real close.Does anyone agree with me here?Any suggestions?

Thanx

ILBB

[Ilikebigbutts]

bump!!!

[HondaFan81]

First, how confident are you that you set the camshaft/physical timing correctly? This needs to be done first to assure your ignition timing is correct. I say this because I read your full project thread and it is possible based on how much you tore it down to replace parts, etc...that you set your camshaft timing off.

Second, assuming you set the camshaft/physical timing correctly...

It is true that for every 90 deg @ cam = 180 deg. @ crank. So your assumption IMO is correct about 15 deg @ crank being approximately 7.5 deg @ cam. MAKE SURE that you 15 deg BTDC +/- 2 deg is your stock ignition timing specifications before you continue...if it is not, please adjust all the values below accordingly. I know you have a JDM F22B engine, I'm not sure if your specs are like a F22ax engine.

So since you don't have the degree markings on your flywheel, you will have do it at the cam gear like you said. Here is how:

Measure/Givens (measure all these items in millimeters):

cam gear diameter (mm)
(Pi) x (cam gear diameter) = circumference (mm)

Calculated:

7.5 deg (cam) / 360 deg = 1/48th of circumference (mm)

What you need to calculate:

(1/48) x (circumference) = ANSWER (mm)


So your "ANSWER (mm)" is the distance along the circumference of the cam gear in millimeters you must move/measure for 7.5 degrees of cam gear rotation.

So what do you do with this "ANSWER (mm)"??:

1) Remove valve cover & upper timing belt cover. Rotate crankshaft (by crank bolt) until #1 cylinder is at TDC (use wooden dowel/screwdriver in spark plug hole of # 1 cylinder, until it reaches highest point). The arrow marking on the cam gear should be pointing at 12 o'clock.

2) Remove distributor cap and make sure the distributor rotor is pointing at/near cylinder # 1 terminal.

3) Now mark a straight line (permanent marker, etc) referencing the cam gear to the cylinder head base at the bottom of the cam gear. In other words, mark a straight line from cylinder head base @ bottom of cam gear to the cam gear itself. This is your starting point. Now measure with tape measure/curved metric scaled (since it's flexible, so you measure WITH the curve of the cam gear) in millimeters that "ANSWER (mm)" distance from the CYLINDER HEAD BASE line (not the cam gear line) in the COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction if your facing the cam gear from the driver-side fender and make a new mark at this point. This is your 7.5 deg @ cam gear mark. Now remove the flywheel plug, line your eyes so that he pointer in the block is in the middle of the " > " mark...so it should look like this " -> "...this means you are looking at it correctly. Now make a horizontal mark on the flywheel according (use a THIN-line paint pen or something similar that stands out). I would also take a small sharp chisel/hammer and make a horizontal mark on this line for a permanent mark that won't rub off in future. Don't go ape with the hammer, one nice/appropriate hit should make a good enough mark that's only deep enough to be visible. Remark the chisel mark with that paint pen if you have to, so that is stands out for when you set the ignition timing.

4) This is optional, but if you want to in the future advance or retard your ignition +/- 2 degrees, use this same procedure to mark 13 & 17 degrees BTDC. I would use a different color paint pen than the "15 deg mark" for these marks.

13 deg @ crank = 6.5 deg @ cam > (0.018 x circumference)
17 deg @ crank = 8.5 deg @ cam > (0.024 x circumference)

5) Now get a timing gun, learn how to use it and use the marks you made to set your ignition timing.

NOTE: I just realized that you have a JDM F22B DOHC nonvtec engine. I was picturing a SOHC F22 engine (wonder why ). Anyhow, same procedure applies...just take note to make sure BOTH intake & exhaust cam gear arrows point at 12'oclock when setting cyl # 1 to TDC. Also, when doing STEP #3 in making the cam gear marks...just pick one of the cam gears to do this procedure on.

Also, another idea is to use one of them plastic school protractors center it at the center point of the cam gear circle and mark the degree marks accordingly (remember in the COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction make the marks if your facing the cam gear from the driver-side fender).

[Ilikebigbutts]

Hondafan, you are god.Thank you for taking time to type all this info for me.

I am pretty confident that me valve timing is right because the car seams to run fine.Since i figured out that i had the firing order wrong(and fixed it), the engine has not back fired yet.The engine sounds good and its smooth(air filter barely moves).I just want to know that my ignition timing is set to specs.Were its at right now it seems to be in a pretty good spot(the dizzy).I do have a timing gun so i'm ready to rumble.Agian,thanx for taking time to type all this stuff out for me.I will let you know how it went this sunday.

ILBB

EDIT:this should seriously be a sticky.

[KillerCam282]

Now this is why I call Cisco the Mad Scientist. Great Write-Up. I vote for sticky.

[HondaFan81]

I had to stay after and finish up some things at work, caught this thread before I left and could not resist doing some quick calcuations & typing before I left from work.

On the way home, I also came up with an alternative solution for you as well, but it's more expensive (unless you already have them, but in your swap thread you never mentioned aftermarket cam gears).

Anyways, most aftermarket cam gears have degree marks up to +/- 10 deg. Installing these with the "0 deg marK" at 12'olock at cyl # 1 TDC, snugging up all cam gear hold down screws. Then, rotate the crank for the 6.5, 7.5 (15 deg BTDC nominal ignition timing) and 8.5 deg cam marks and make you chisel marks on the flywheel accordingly. Basically, you're using the already laser-etched marks on the aftermarket cam gears for less work.

BTW..I'm not God...appreciate the thought, but I'm not.

[Ilikebigbutts]

No, idont have aftermarket cam gears.I do plan on buying some with my b-day money though!!!as well as some cams...thanx again.

ILBB

[HondaFan81]

Sweet. You have a few options with the camshafts....I know cuz I had a JDM F22B DOHC head for a hybrid setup, but sold it because of my two F22 all-motor projects. At least the person that has it will put it to good use and is a good buddy.

If you don't have options or need some sources, hit me on AIM...

Accord EX SE

[HondaFan81]

ILBB how the progress...??

[Ilikebigbutts]

Hey man i just came back home i havent been here all day.I was looking for an old protractor but i cant find it.I'm working monday-tuesday but the rest of the week i'll try to get one and finish this.I really want to set the timing correct so i can move on to working on the little kinks.Car sounds good but when its cold Every 5 seconds or so it will make this sound form the back of the engine bay its a little weird.The best way to describe it is it sounds like the car has a sound system and its thumping at the beat.I'm sure you all heard a car going down the road with a system and the windows up and you can't hear the music just the thumping.Its that thumping noise but once and every five secs or so.I messed around with the timing by hand again and it stopped doing it but i dont know if it stoped because it warmed up or because I just found a better spot for the dizzy.I'm guessing the thumping was missfiring?But then again my old engine was doing the same when it was cold just not as much as this one.This may be a confusing post but I'm tired and I've been to the doctors all day.Peace.

ILBB

[F22-GURU]

First, how confident are you that you set the camshaft/physical timing correctly? This needs to be done first to assure your ignition timing is correct. I say this because I read your full project thread and it is possible based on how much you tore it down to replace parts, etc...that you set your camshaft timing off.

Second, assuming you set the camshaft/physical timing correctly...

It is true that for every 90 deg @ cam = 180 deg. @ crank. So your assumption IMO is correct about 15 deg @ crank being approximately 7.5 deg @ cam. MAKE SURE that you 15 deg BTDC +/- 2 deg is your stock ignition timing specifications before you continue...if it is not, please adjust all the values below accordingly. I know you have a JDM F22B engine, I'm not sure if your specs are like a F22ax engine.

So since you don't have the degree markings on your flywheel, you will have do it at the cam gear like you said. Here is how:

Measure/Givens (measure all these items in millimeters):

cam gear diameter (mm)
(Pi) x (cam gear diameter) = circumference (mm)

Calculated:

7.5 deg (cam) / 360 deg = 1/48th of circumference (mm)

What you need to calculate:

(1/48) x (circumference) = ANSWER (mm)


So your "ANSWER (mm)" is the distance along the circumference of the cam gear in millimeters you must move/measure for 7.5 degrees of cam gear rotation.

So what do you do with this "ANSWER (mm)"??:

1) Remove valve cover & upper timing belt cover. Rotate crankshaft (by crank bolt) until #1 cylinder is at TDC (use wooden dowel/screwdriver in spark plug hole of # 1 cylinder, until it reaches highest point). The arrow marking on the cam gear should be pointing at 12 o'clock.

2) Remove distributor cap and make sure the distributor rotor is pointing at/near cylinder # 1 terminal.

3) Now mark a straight line (permanent marker, etc) referencing the cam gear to the cylinder head base at the bottom of the cam gear. In other words, mark a straight line from cylinder head base @ bottom of cam gear to the cam gear itself. This is your starting point. Now measure with tape measure/curved metric scaled (since it's flexible, so you measure WITH the curve of the cam gear) in millimeters that "ANSWER (mm)" distance from the CYLINDER HEAD BASE line (not the cam gear line) in the COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction if your facing the cam gear from the driver-side fender and make a new mark at this point. This is your 7.5 deg @ cam gear mark. Now remove the flywheel plug, line your eyes so that he pointer in the block is in the middle of the " > " mark...so it should look like this " -> "...this means you are looking at it correctly. Now make a horizontal mark on the flywheel according (use a THIN-line paint pen or something similar that stands out). I would also take a small sharp chisel/hammer and make a horizontal mark on this line for a permanent mark that won't rub off in future. Don't go ape with the hammer, one nice/appropriate hit should make a good enough mark that's only deep enough to be visible. Remark the chisel mark with that paint pen if you have to, so that is stands out for when you set the ignition timing.

4) This is optional, but if you want to in the future advance or retard your ignition +/- 2 degrees, use this same procedure to mark 13 & 17 degrees BTDC. I would use a different color paint pen than the "15 deg mark" for these marks.

13 deg @ crank = 6.5 deg @ cam > (0.018 x circumference)
17 deg @ crank = 8.5 deg @ cam > (0.024 x circumference)

5) Now get a timing gun, learn how to use it and use the marks you made to set your ignition timing.

NOTE: I just realized that you have a JDM F22B DOHC nonvtec engine. I was picturing a SOHC F22 engine (wonder why ). Anyhow, same procedure applies...just take note to make sure BOTH intake & exhaust cam gear arrows point at 12'oclock when setting cyl # 1 to TDC. Also, when doing STEP #3 in making the cam gear marks...just pick one of the cam gears to do this procedure on.

Also, another idea is to use one of them plastic school protractors center it at the center point of the cam gear circle and mark the degree marks accordingly (remember in the COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction make the marks if your facing the cam gear from the driver-side fender).

Firstly Cisco, what an Excellent Write Up.
Man you have got way tooooo much time on your hands!
Secondly. So Have I.
Alternatively you could save yourself a shit load of time by Setting Up #1 Firing Stroke @ TDC.
Marking the Crank Pulley & Lower Timing Cover.
Notching the Flywheel with a Long Mark for TDC.
Using the Protractor and Marking 15* BTDC on the Crank Pulley.
Turning Crank to line the 15* Mark to Lower Timing Cover Mark.
Notching the Flywheel with a Short Mark.
Using White Out Pen Marker to fill in Notches.
Set The Ignition Timing to Specs then Centre Pop the Distributor Adjuster Slot & Head. For future Reference.
The reasoning behind this method is that you wouldn't Have to Remove The Valve Cover and Disturb the Seals.
But you could also do it to confirm Cam distance/angles for correction due to possible Timing Belt Slack/Freeplay considering the Crank Pulley and Flywheel are a direct attachment to the Crankshaft.
Thirdly, If this thread is not stickied it bloody well should be.
That way before Posting his Noobie Question, Deev's could have found it easier. (Oh Shit! I hope I don't get banished)

[92accordexpower]

[F22-GURU]

Man, where are you getting these diagrams from, they are awesome.