balancer shaft delete question

[owequitit]

So you are saying this will not effect the longevity or reliability of the engine? I may just do this when I swap cams

No. It has NOTHING to do with the structural strength or durability of the engine. It is simply to make the engine FEEL smoother to the passengers in the car. It was nothing more than something Honda put in the engine to make it run smoother than most 4 cylinders at the time.

[HondaFan81]

Reiteration in more detail:

For those that have a stock block with balance shaft belt still functional that rev their motor higher than 5K RPMs, do you feel how the engine is not as smooth at these higher RPMS? You feel a vibration or resonancy occurring that this point.

Well, when you remove the balance shafts, you notice that it becomes smoother in these same conditions. That is my experience.

I am in the habit of removing the belt for ease of maintenance and no belt you have to buy, so cheaper. Also, you never had to worry again of your front balance shaft belt seal walking out, so no need for a retainer either. Those are the front engine seals that wear out the earliest, so overall you will not have them annoying front engine seal leaks on these older motors as well.

For me, it's a win-win overall. Besides, if you modify your car with a camshaft and/or poly engine mounts you will not notice any difference at idle in terms of cabin comfort anyhow.

[92Inspire]

honda put it on there for a reason, dont fuck with it man. is it really worth 5 hp? if ur doing a complete build and u buy a balancer eliminator kit than fine u shouldnt have any problems. but on a simple stock build uve gotta think that if u feel a vibration while in the seat whats ur lower end feeling and doing. honda didnt become the best selling vehicle and one of the best race teams on the planet without knowing what they where doing. in MY OPINION id leave it alone unless ur doing a complete top and bottom build.IF UR GONNA DO SOMETHING DO IT RIGHT.

[93F22A6]

Well if they were needed you wouldn't have people running without them all the time. Plus Honda didn't put these on the B or D series.

[d112crzy]

honda put it on there for a reason, dont fuck with it man. is it really worth 5 hp? if ur doing a complete build and u buy a balancer eliminator kit than fine u shouldnt have any problems. but on a simple stock build uve gotta think that if u feel a vibration while in the seat whats ur lower end feeling and doing. honda didnt become the best selling vehicle and one of the best race teams on the planet without knowing what they where doing. in MY OPINION id leave it alone unless ur doing a complete top and bottom build.IF UR GONNA DO SOMETHING DO IT RIGHT.

You win the most idiotic post of the year. Congrats.

[92Inspire]

cuz b and d series arent over 2 litres guy. and yeah people do it all the time but what does that matter. as i said IN MY OPINION.... the f and h series are a way more radical motor. a fully port and polished b or d series will never flow as good as a f series head. im sorry but i work on cars for a living and i see what happens to motors that people try to shade tree tune and modify every day. honestly 5 hp isnt worth it.

[d112crzy]

I build and tune motors for a living and I've NEVER seen any bearing damage done by removing the balance shaft belt. I did it to my old f22 and when I took it apart, the bearings still looked new. I also did it to my current H22 and I'm sure they'd look new as well. I do it to every customers car as well.

It does absolutely NOTHING negative. You can't even feel the vibrations on solid mounts. It's worth it because it's free.

[owequitit]

cuz b and d series arent over 2 litres guy. and yeah people do it all the time but what does that matter. as i said IN MY OPINION.... the f and h series are a way more radical motor. a fully port and polished b or d series will never flow as good as a f series head. im sorry but i work on cars for a living and i see what happens to motors that people try to shade tree tune and modify every day. honestly 5 hp isnt worth it.

You might want to study the principal of operation of the balance shafts. I hope you don't make recommendations to customers based on things you don't understand.

The balance shafts cancel second order vibrations, and keep them from transferring from the block to the engine mounts, to the chassis, to the passengers.

Second order vibrations are caused by secondary imbalance. Secondary imbalance is explained by the fact that even though the crank rotates at a constant speed, the piston actually achieves maximum velocity OVER half way up the stroke when coming up from BDC. Since the piston has less room to slow down and stop at TDC, it creates a larger force. This slight imbalance causes a differential in force, and thus vibration, when the engine is running. Essentially, the piston moving up has a larger force than the same piston moving down. It is not necessarily structural, but it does cause vibration in the engine. Secondary vibration can be sensed as the "vibrating sander" texture in the steering wheel at idle. Since larger pistons (i.e. larger displacement) have more mass than smaller ones, they create larger forces, and thus more vibration. The reason Honda put balance shafts in the H22 and F22, and not the D or B series, or even the early K20's is because the longer strokes and larger displacements of the F and H series created significantly greater secondary vibrations. Since they were also selling at a higher price point where customers are less likely to tolerate such vibrations, it was deemed necessary to install the balance shafts to make the engine FEEL smoother to the passengers. Consequently, from and audible standpoint, the engine also has less "boominess" to the sound, which makes it sound more refined and smoother as well.

V engines don't need balance shafts because there are certain V angles for each configuration that will naturally cancel out the vibrations (60* for a V6, 90* for an offset pin crank V8, 72* for a V10 and 60* for a V12. Oddly, flat plane crank V8's have the same second order vibration problem that an I4 does, for the same reason). It is not coincidental that most engines in those configurations either have those V angles or balance shafts. The Buick 3800 being a good example of a non 60* V6 that requires a balance shaft to operate smoothly. Inline 6's are also generally inherently balanced.

Anyway, since the downward traveling piston is balanced by the upward traveling crankshaft counterweight, and because the pistons create less force going down, there is no need to balance the down stroke. However, on the upstroke, there is no natural balance from the crank, and thus the balance shafts cancel the transmission of the unbalanced upstroke force into the powertrain. The reason balance shafts appeared on I4 engines first is because A) they are not inherently balanced and B) since the pistons move in pairs, and move up and down once in each rotation, you get two sets of these imbalanced forces per revolution. That is why they are called "second order" vibrations, because they occur at 2x the crank speed. That is also why the balance shafts MUST move at 2x crank speed (yes, at 8,000RPM an H22's balance shafts are turning at 16,000 RPM).

Now, this creates its own problem. Since the balance shafts are creating an up and down force as they spin, they are also creating a side to side force. Think of a washing machine drum that isn't balanced. You can quickly visualize how this would cause an issue with the balance shafts cancelling second order vibration, while creating more of their own. So instead of an up/down vibration, we would get a front to back vibration. This is why Honda made the rear shaft rotate in the opposite direction of the front shaft. When one is moving foward, the other moves back. Then they both cancel the upward force at the same time, and work with the rotating assembly on the downstroke, and the cancel each other out when they are sideways. This effectively makes them work only when they need to, and keeps them from causing their own set of vibration problems.

But, here is why they are not structural. Even when the balance shafts are moving, the crank is still experiencing the second order vibrations. The pistons, rods, and bearings are as well because the piston is still putting greater force into the crank on the upstroke. The whole block is experiencing the imbalance. But since the balance shafts are providing an opposite force, it doesn't transmit out of the block, even though it is still there. By removing the balance shaft belt, and or the balance shafts completely, you simply allow the forces on the crank to transmit into the block, and thus into the car.

The easiest way to think of this is with Active noise cancelling technology. When a sound wave exists, it causes a vibration at our ear, allowing us to hear it, just like the piston creates a vibration in the engine, allowing us to feel it. But if an exact opposite wave or force is sent out at exactly the right time, it will cancel your ability to hear the first wave because it is completely opposite, and the result is no air movement, no vibration, no sound. However, both waves are still there, they still have energy, they still have force, and they are still traveling, they simply cancel each other out as they pass by one another. This is in effect what the balance shafts are doing. They are creating one wave that prevents another from being felt, even though they are both still there. Remove the balance belt, and the second order vibrations are allowed to be felt. It seems complex, esoteric and faulty, but it is not.

[HondaFan81]

cuz b and d series arent over 2 litres guy. and yeah people do it all the time but what does that matter. as i said IN MY OPINION.... the f and h series are a way more radical motor. a fully port and polished b or d series will never flow as good as a f series head. im sorry but i work on cars for a living and i see what happens to motors that people try to shade tree tune and modify every day. honestly 5 hp isnt worth it.

Your post does not make sense for one simple reason, you contradict yourself.

If you agree there is no problem with balance shaft elimination on a fully built motor versus a stock motor, that is a contradiction.

Whether you are stock or modified, that does NOT eliminate what you feel is a "problem" with regard to balance shafts.

You would be more consistent in your argument if you stated to not eliminate balance shafts period, regardless of setup. I can logically deduct that due to your inconsistency, that implies you do not understand this issue and are misinformed.

[92Inspire]

k fellas ill leave this one alone. I can understand what ur all saying, and i do understand the operation and purpose of the balance shaft but i know what im talking about. I do not wanna argue with ne of you. i give u credit for your experiance in engine building and automotive work but i know what ive seen and i have alot of experiance in the same work. sorry for the disruption.

[SPLCB7]

wheres this belt at. ive heard of it but i havent figured out where it is or which one it is. anyone have an pic so i now which one to pull?

[illestatus]

Mine got deleted when we did my tune up recently, I don't feel any dif

[turbo90accord]

cuz b and d series arent over 2 litres guy. and yeah people do it all the time but what does that matter. as i said IN MY OPINION.... the f and h series are a way more radical motor. a fully port and polished b or d series will never flow as good as a f series head. im sorry but i work on cars for a living and i see what happens to motors that people try to shade tree tune and modify every day. honestly 5 hp isnt worth it.

k fellas ill leave this one alone. I can understand what ur all saying, and i do understand the operation and purpose of the balance shaft but i know what im talking about. I do not wanna argue with ne of you. i give u credit for your experiance in engine building and automotive work but i know what ive seen and i have alot of experiance in the same work. sorry for the disruption.

Working on cars and knowing the theory and posessing technical knowledge of engine dynamics and operation are two very different things. I worked on cars for a living as well but i would also do hours of research on the thermodynamic and harmonic properties on how engines work. seeing why something that happened and knowing scientifically are two different worlds.